In this soulful episode, Benj Miller, Co-Founder & Chief Architect of System and Soul, LLC, shares how his new book, Renegades, unlocks success for founders who want the freedom to be true to themselves AND the implement the least structure necessary to build a more scalable, sustainable, and enjoyable company.
You will discover:
– How to let your organization grow up without selling out
– Why renegade leaders should ignore most of the advice about what they “should do”
– Why the transformation from founder to leader is worth it
Episode Transcript
Scott Ritzheimer
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again to the secrets of the high demand coach podcast. And I am here with yet another high demand coach who has been here before. It’s the one and only Benj Miller. And just a little bit about Benj authenticity, breaking the rules and creating clarity are the core of his life. And his work he’s found in 10 business is in his 18 years of entrepreneurial experience. And he now dedicates his time to helping other business owners to catalyze growth through the system and soul framework and find game changing breakthroughs in the process. Now for all our incredible listeners out there, you may remember Benj from episode three, and he’s back. Now why is he back, he’s back, because he’s got a brand new book that is just out. It’s called renegades. And for founders who want the freedom to be true to themselves, and implement the least structure necessary to build a more scalable and sustainable and enjoyable company, you’re going to want to get a copy. So Benj, welcome to the show, I want to congratulate you on the launch of the new book, very, very exciting times. Now, I had the honor of getting to read an advanced copy of the book. And it what struck me is it’s not only powerful, there’s some absolute gold in there. But it’s also beautiful. And you know, it’s got color all through it has got photos all through it. Why was the design such an important part of the process for you?
Benj Miller
Yeah, thanks, I, um, I, I guess it’s worth saying that we threw away the first three drafts of this book. It was like maybe the right information. But I actually when I would go back and read it, I felt sorry for somebody to have to read it. I’m like, man, and so that, once I got past that, it opened up this whole kind of new world of possibilities of what a book could be. really opened me up to inserting more of my story into the book. And going more toward spending, I don’t tend to spend a lot of time on the problem. Like I love to get to the solution. Solving problems is my love language. But it was I learned so much by going okay, what was the actual process that got me to the place where I needed to understand these things, was willing to understand the things and before we even get to what the things are? Yeah. There’s also it’s to answer your question. There’s a book by Victor. I’ve got 1000 copies, after James Victori. There’s a book by James Victori, called effect perfection. And it’s one of my favorite books that has nothing to do with business, but everything to do with life. And he broke all the rules when he wrote his book. He’s got different font sizes on different pages. And, you know, his own little script, scribbles and illustrations, and a lot of them are nonsense, but it made it brought his personality into the book. So I thought this was an opportunity to kind of do the same thing.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. So one of the things we’ve had a chance to kind of work alongside each other for a couple of years now. And one of the things that, that that’s so true about you, it’s true, the framework that you’ve built, it’s true, this book is the soul side of this is so rich, that you spend so much time talking about how it feels and what the experience is, and, and even you know, how you how you set up an environment for the soul of your organization as a whole and the people who work for you? Why does the business why is the soul side of a business matters so much to you?
Benj Miller
Well, I think it matter. There’s two parts to that, why it matters to the company and why it matters to that leader, founder Renegade. And I think the reason it starts with the renegade for me, because I want them to find freedom. And I don’t want them to fall into the trap that so many, I don’t mean to pick on Harvard Business Review articles, they’re, they’re all very intelligent. But in a lot of ways, you read them as founders, and they’re telling you different ways that you need to grow up. The company needs to grow up, you need to grow, but you don’t necessarily need to sell your soul and become somebody that you’re not. Because when you do that, you lose that renegade energy that actually created this company that now exists. So what we need to do is, is team that for the organization. The reason the soul side matters to me, looking back on my entrepreneurial career, I was, you know, I didn’t have words for it back then. But I was a very soulful leader, I cared a lot about my organization’s health, about their culture, about why we were doing what we’re doing our identity as a culture, how we lead people and group people and how to plan for people related to people. So when I got into the world of coaching senior leadership teams, I started on the system side because the system side was the thing that I needed to create breakthrough and I it was the thing that I thought all companies needed to create breakthrough. And when I started doing that, I started realizing that not all of these companies have the same soul component that I had infused into my company. So that was part of the impetus for maybe we can put these together and actually make them all part of the same system.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. Yeah. So tell us the books called renegades. It’s largely written for founders kind of visionary leaders, what is a renegade? And why did you ultimately choose that title?
Benj Miller
Yeah, the the renegade term just resonated really loudly because when I think about a renegade, I think about somebody who’s willing to go against the status quo. And the status quo could be all the ways all the other companies in your space operate. It could be the way that culture is telling you, you’re supposed to do something, or you know, all the MBA programs are telling you, you’re supposed to do something. And most Renegades are driven by an urge that there’s a better way a better future or a purpose that’s big enough to take this risk that they’re going into that they’re thinking about that they’re considering. And so there’s a renegade spirit to say, I can do it better. I can do it different. If, if so and so can do it then. So can I it’s amazing. That was my stories of founders. A bad working for a bad CEO going, you know, what, if this guy can be successful? I think anybody can I definitely think I can’t. So that that, you know, not everybody has that response. But you get a renegade, and they’re like, Yeah, let’s go. There’s some energy to that word. There’s some forward movement toward our preferred future.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. Yeah. And I love the way you talk about the the pressure that’s coming against renegades. There’s so many things, and I think this is actually somewhat unique to our time. But there’s never been more things that you should do. Yeah, right. Like, there’s never been more opinions on how you need to lead your business, how you need to organize your day, how you need to fill in the blank. And, you know, I think you and I have a little bit of renegade in us as well. But I feel this just intrinsic resistance against that, like, you want me to not do something, tell me I should do it. And, and it’s this kind of pushing against, right, that’s just a natural part. I see why that works so well, early on, because if someone else knew how to do it, then they’d already be doing right there is a bit of like, Hey, we’ve got to, you know, it’s not reinventing the wheel in the old style way. But it’s like, we’re not using stone wheels anymore. Right? Somebody reinvented the wheel. And it made a lot of sense. So there is this kind of figuring out and going, why does that? Does that ever become a liability? Is that ever our problem?
Benj Miller
That is that is the entire premise of the book, we talk about the founder gap in between being a renegade founder, and the world telling us to get to the other side of the founder gap, we need to lose the Renegade. And the premise that we put in the book is, that’s actually opposite. We need to lose the founder part, we need to go from renegade founder to renegade leader. So what does it look like to keep that renegade energy and lead your company from you know, it thinking almost as if you are reinventing your company, you know, just like you did on day one, you’re gonna have to do that several times, in order to get to the other side. So I think one of the most freeing things about going from renegade to freeing things by going from renegade founder to renegade leader is you don’t have to lose the Renegade. That’s number one. And number two, so much of the growing up is more about the organization maturing than you trying to be somebody that you’re not, there are ways to almost delegate the maturing of the business. And you don’t get me wrong, there’s this is the greatest path for personal growth is going to start a company because you’re constantly put into new challenges every day, new levels of stress, new challenges, new market conditions, like if you want to grow fast, go start a company, right? Like that’s, that’s the quickest way. So you you’ve got to be in that constant pursuit of growth, but it doesn’t mean changing how you’re wired and where you’re where your energy comes from, for the passion that you have for that organization.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. How does how does someone sitting there know it’s time to read the book? Because they kind of capture that to me that seemed like there was a right time for this. It’s not all run against all the time, but when you know, it’s it’s it’s the right time for this book.
Benj Miller
Yeah. That I think when you’re stuck with the moment, when you’re confronted that what you did to get here isn’t working anymore. There’s a there’s a moment you talk about a really, really well on the founders journey. But there’s a moment where you have the most organizations grew by being an amazing founder surrounded by a bunch of helpers, that could get stuff done. That’s great. But it requires that that leader to be in those details to help prioritize, to help Ida to help push projects that whatever. So to make decisions. And so what we need to do is we talked about transitioning from a founder led organization, to a team that’s led by senior leaders. And that’s hard. That’s, that’s super hard, because a lot of times the people that you elevated into positions of leadership, because they were great at their job, they’re not the ones that are going to be able to bring the scale for the next season. So whenever whenever you’re confronted with what I’m doing is not working personally or professionally, I think that there’s a lot of freedom in the book. I also think it’s worth mentioning that I had a secondary audience in mind, which is the people that suffer through working with a renegade founder. And there’s two parts to that, how can they better understand what’s happening inside of that Renegade, so that they can better partner them. And the second part of that is, a lot of the maturing that we mentioned, can actually be done by other people that are more wired, more gifted, have the experience to lead in some of those areas. So it kind of gives them a roadmap to step up in order to take that weight off of the founder.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, yeah. So good. So kind of in light of that, what would you say is the cost of that transition from founder to leader? And why is it worth it?
Benj Miller
Man. Let me start with the the second, that’s such a good question. The let me start with the second part, why is it worth it? It’s worth it because if you don’t go through that pain through that journey, you’ll never get to appreciate your own capacity, and what you were created to do and the magnitude at which you could do it. If there is a cost, it costs relationships. Now, please don’t hear me you don’t have to go burn bridges. There’s there’s gracious and loving ways to do that. But it costs relationships, it costs changing your own internal dialogue, it changed it cost taking the things that used to get results for you. And deciding that you’re not going to do those anymore. There’s so much of it’s, it’s just a when we actually talk about it as I shifts their shifts that we have to make. And that those shifts are again, not something where we’re trying to change who you are. But if we can, if we can channel that same renegade energy a little differently. The results go through the roof.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, yeah, it’s so true. So in the book, you do you talk about six big shifts that Renegades need to make Now, which of those do you think is the most important?
Benj Miller
And the one that’s most important is probably the one that you’re weakest out right now. Because most, most founders are innately good at one or two or three of the six shifts. But they’re really struggling on one or more of the others. If you ask me what what I like universally, what I think makes the biggest impact. I think there’s something we use the word ethos, it’s the ethos shift, but we go from, you know, culture tells us don’t make a scene. You know, get in line, follow suit, go to school, raise your hand, ask to go to the bathroom, the renegades, like, I gotta be me. If I like these pants, I’m gonna wear these pants today. If I want that haircut, I’m gonna you know, if I want to do whatever it’s like you said earlier, if you told me not to do something, I’m gonna probably go do it now or vice versa. But what happens is, in that story for the organization, everything gets centered around the personality and the wiring and the whim of that founder. And so the the identity of the organization has to shift from the founder to the organization doesn’t mean that that that founder isn’t instrumental in in setting that they are they should lead this charge but it goes from I gotta be me, too. We got to be we, we got to do we. And we’ve got to understand that what what that is, so we call that the ethos choice, the ethos shift, and the three big parts of it is really knowing who you are with an identity statement. Really good. unclear about your values and making them something big enough that they hurt. Like, it’s from Patrick Lencioni says, you know, the, you don’t really know your values until they are know if you’re living your values until they cause pain. So our values have to hurt. And then also stealing another tool from Jim Collins the his hedgehog concept around doing one thing, doing it really well staying in your focus area, when when organizations get really clear on those three things and walk around with a sense of identity. It’s a game changer. I use the analogy, I think it’s in the book, or maybe I just talk about it. But you remember Braveheart, the movie, and William Wallace is on his horse out in front of the army. They’re about to go to battle, epic scene war paint everywhere. And as he’s talking, it’s scanning the audience. Right and, and you’ve got the dude with the sword. And you’ve got the dude with the spear. Some people have bows, and every, like 20 or 30 people in the front line, there’s some poor schmuck that standing there holding a flag. I mean, talk about sacrificial lamb, like you’re about to run against the enemy carrying a flag. So why was that a good idea? Why was that worth it? Because it reminded everybody else behind them, what they were fighting for. And it empowered them to make certain decisions based on who they knew they were as as a collective. And so that that’s the ethos choice. And I think it’s probably universally the area where organizations are the weakest out of all of the six.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, I love that you brought that point that the folks are already doing some of this. It’s not like you’re talking to people who have never thought about business before. These are successful leaders. But I think we all run into the trap. It’s kind of the I Love Lucy episode, she’s, she’s in the house looking underneath the couch, or Ricky walks in, and he’s like, What do you do? And she’s like, well, I lost my ring. He’s like, you lost it here under the couch is sick. No, I lost it in the bedroom, but the light is better out here. Alright, it’s just we’re, you know, we go to where the light is we go to where our strength our strengths are. And and we miss some of this in the process. Yeah, absolutely. So as you’re writing this book, and writing book tends to be a much more personal thing than we think, especially when you share the the degree to which you did have your own story. What do you, what was the hardest part on getting this book out into the world?
Benj Miller
Oh, that’s an interesting question. I think the hardest part was early in the process. When I knew there was a book in me, I knew there was a message that the world needed to hear. And it was it took a long time. And what felt like a lot of wasted effort. But it wasn’t it was part of the journey, you know, but that early part of like this, this, there’s something here, but it doesn’t fit together. So what is the actual story? That for me, I’m not a great storyteller. I’m not great at setting contact, even with my clients, I have to remember that you got to stop and set context, often set context, I just want to jump in and solve problems, I want to jump to the solution. And so the same thing happened, you know, with his book, I had to spend enough time understanding the problem that I was trying to articulate the answer for you.
Scott Ritzheimer
And so what would you say? That’s actually two groups of people that I’d love your your kind of advice for? So what would you say to the person who’s out there? And they feel like they have a book in them? And they don’t know, you know, whether to make the leap? What to do about it? What would you say to that person?
Benj Miller
I think you just have to start, you’ve got to start getting words on paper. And it’s, it’s so vulnerable. It’s a work of art, right? Any art is it has a level of vulnerability to it. So letting people into that process to say, hey, read this and tell me if there’s anything there. And I go, Yeah, I mean, I gave this to my coach. I’ve been with him for 15 years. He means the world to me, and he’s like me on one of the drafts, but I was like, Alright, gotta keep working. Yeah. I didn’t want to take too much of his time. So he didn’t see the next couple. And by the time he saw what is basically the rough draft of what we have now, he he reading goes, there’s there’s really something here, here’s what I love. Here’s a couple things that weren’t clear where you could go deeper and gave some really critical feedback, but sending it to like I’ve never I’ve never posted anything on LinkedIn or send an email that didn’t have some spelling word typo grammatical error that my mom hasn’t found, like the minute I put it out in the universe. So I think because she saves me, but it’s also, you know, that’s that vulnerability to like, I’m gonna send you a really rough first draft, you know, and and please, just inviting other people into that, and being willing to go through that process.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. And and the bigger question here. So for the Renegades out there that they’re, they’re tired of the weight of all these shoulds. They’re feeling the gap between what they know their organization can be, what it’s meant to be and what it is, and, and they’re just they’re feeling the pain of that, what would you say to them in that moment?
Benj Miller
This is, this is not going to be what you expect. But whatever team you have around you, at your organization, let them into the problem. Let them into this is what I am experiencing as the leader of the company. And it’s not as just a bear all moment, it does illustrate vulnerability, but it invites your team to be part of the solution, because they are the solution or your future team is part of the solution. So inviting other people to come in and help get a vision for what it would look like. I did an interview with Jesse Cole. He’s the savannah bananas guy, if you if you know who that is, he’s written a couple of books. But he basically said if it doesn’t have to do with culture, or creating the show, he doesn’t touch it. You know, he’s basically the CEO of the organization, he has such perfect clarity around, I do these two things. And maybe you’re at a place as a founder where you can’t jump from here to two things. But maybe you can start to get an idea of what those two things are. And maybe you can start to dedicate a day a week to each one of those, maybe somebody else can start to fill in the gaps. So I think inviting other people into what you’re experiencing and your vision for what it looks like on the other side. Leverage your team to create the roadmap to start moving in that direction.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, that’s so good. To borrow some of your language from earlier on. If I were to kind of capture what I know of the book and tell me if you agree with this. It’s this ability to grow up without growing old. Yeah. And to you know, to keep that.. what Jack Welch described it as putting the soul of a small business in the body of a large business. Yeah, yeah. Narrow. out selling out. Yes. Yeah. So good. So we’ve got folks out there. We got lots of renegades listening to this. They want to grow up without selling out. How can they get a copy of the book? What what’s the next step?
Benj Miller
That’s easy. You can go to Amazon and type Renegades. You might need Renegades plus my name Benj Miller. You can get it on Amazon. And feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. I love conversations following interacting with Renegades out there that are on a mission.
Scott Ritzheimer
Fantastic. We will drop both the Amazon link and the LinkedIn link as well in the show notes. So go ahead and grab those once you’re not driving anymore. And so Benj, again, just an honor having you on the show. I’ve so valued our friendship and getting to work alongside each other sharpen each other for these last few years. The book is fantastic. I cannot wait for folks to read it. And so thank you for being here. For those listening and watching go get the book and you know your time and attention mean the world to us. I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I know I did and I cannot wait to see you next time. Take care.
Contact Benj Miller
Authenticity, breaking the rules, and creating clarity are the core of Benj Miller’s life and work. He’s founded ten businesses in his eighteen years of entrepreneurial experience. He now dedicates his time to helping other business owners catalyze growth through the System & Soul Framework and find game-changing breakthroughs in the process. As an advocate for all businesses running on System & Soul™, Benj also co-hosts the System & Soul podcast with Chris White and co-founded the S2 Sync app. He lives in Atlanta, GA with his wife of twenty-two years and their four amazing kids.
Want to get your copy of Renegades? You can find it on Amazon at https://a.co/d/9RmrUlr and connect with Benj at https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjmilleratl/
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