In this holistic episode, Zoe Fragou, owner of FragouZoe.com, shares how she loves working with international teams and introducing them to alternative, healthier ways to achieve excellence, while empowering mental health, diversity and equality at the same time.
You will discover:
– How you can have a healthy culture and a toxic culture at the same time
– Why something isn’t inherently good just because it’s hard
– Why you don’t want your employees to define themselves by their job
Episode Transcript
Scott Ritzheimer
Hello Hello and welcome. Welcome once again to the secrets of the high demand coach podcast and I am here with yet another high demand coach and that is Zoe Fragou. She is an organizational psychologist with a master’s in human resource management. She’s also a clinical psychologist, and is licensed to do so she has a Diploma in Business Coaching and mentorship and a certificate in Agile leadership, just to name a few. And at the moment, she’s also a PhD candidate candidate at Pantheon University. And her research is mainly focused on the psychometrics of the corporate culture. Now, alongside her academic interests, she’s operating professionally in the full spectrum of her science, taking over projects, from corporate culture transformation to employee training, and development to business coaching to name a few. And she’s also a senior member of the Hellenic Institute of coaching and was voted the best career coach in the global coaching conference of 2021. Well, what a list of accomplishments Zowie Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the show. So glad to have you here. Now, before we jump in, because there was some fascinating stuff I uncovered from you in the the research I did before the episode, but before we get there, I’d love to hear your story. What were you doing before getting into coaching and consulting and training and speaking and all the things you do? And how did that ultimately lead you to make the leap?
Zoe Fragou
All right, for Scott, thank you very much for having me over. It’s a great honor. And I’m very happy to be talking to you. And well, like you said, I’m a psychologist. So I actually have a clinical license as well. I was working in a psychiatric hospital platica in Athens, and I was alcoholic rehabilitation. But I kind of always knew that I’m more of a business person myself. So it made more sense to pursue a different career choice, combined psychology and business. Therefore, I found my way through HR. And before COVID, I was actually the HR director of a group of companies here in Greece. But then set COVID. Like many other people all over the world, I got a lot of free time in my hands, not necessarily wanting it. But I did have a lot of free time. And that’s when I started realizing that maybe I should start pursuing coaching instead of HR and mentorship and building it my own company. Well, I can combine cultural change with my passion with bringing mental health and empowering diversity in the workspace. So that’s how it happened basically.
Scott Ritzheimer
That’s fantastic. Fantastic. Now, we fast forward to today, what would you say some of the most important work you’re doing for your clients?
Zoe Fragou
A definitely a culture change. Like I said, I usually come inside projects where there has been a change, like a merger, or an acquisition, or even a difference in succession, like the former CEO retire their left. And now we have a new CEO who wants to bring a new fresh idea in the building. And usually they bring me on board, and I do my own tests to understand and assess the current situation. And then we move on from there with specific interventions. They can be coaching, they can be team building activities, or workshops or training. And then depending on exactly what every single person on every single department needs around these changes, until everyone is super happy new environment.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, fantastic. One of the things that we hear a lot is we either define culture as healthy or toxic, we really kind of treat those as almost mutually exclusive. And I’m wondering, can you have elements of both? And if so what do you do to to start moving the toxic pieces toward a healthier environment?
Zoe Fragou
Well, thank you very much for this question. Because I don’t really believe that there are toxic cultures. This is extremely rare. But imagine that organizations are like a Jenga. Do you know Jenga, the game? Somehow they’re standing sometimes you see, the pieces are misfit and you don’t think they’re making sense. But if an organization is functional, and they’re moving on, and they’re working all together, then most probably they’re not toxic. What happens many times is that a person doesn’t fit there, and they should pursue something else. But for some reason, we are so used to having to absolutely make something seem bad and toxic in order to leave it. Because basically, we’re not trying to say no, and that’s okay. It’s just not for me. So that’s something that I think more people should start actually thinking that if everyone else is happy, then maybe you’re the one that’s fitting there. It doesn’t mean that annual Did you have any shoot? Maybe it’s just a mismatch?
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s interesting, because I know I work with a lot of leaders. And oftentimes leadership can have this kind of bad rep of like, you know, forcing stuff down or not caring about their people. And, you know, I’ve had the privilege of working with a lot of people who really, really love their people, right? Like they want to build a great team. And one of the challenges that they face is when someone’s not a fit, whether that be from a performance standpoint or culture standpoint are both. There’s this, there’s this kind of internal desire of like they want what’s best for them. And it’s hard to see past what’s best for them is keeping them in this job. And, and so there’s this kind of pressure to keep someone in a role that maybe isn’t a good fit. And what I hear you saying is the flip side of that is true is there’s a pressure to, to keep the job that you have, even if it’s not a fit, is that right?
Zoe Fragou
Exactly, for some reason. And I think that media has a lot to play with that because they popularizing the idea that the more difficult something is and the more you know, it’s draining and consuming for our emotions, etc, then it’s probably worth it. And it probably gives you some value. But, and well, I have to say the exact opposite. If something doesn’t flow naturally, of course, there’s going to be hardships in every job in every work in every career. But it’s different compromising in order to get the job done, and compromising your entire character in your entire personality to match a culture with completely different values.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, I was actually thinking about this just yesterday, talked with two or three people in one day that they were talking about recovering from corporate culture. And it it strikes me as odd because there’s so much put into creating good cultures now, especially in the kind of post, Peter Drucker and Jim Collins era that there’s so much put into creating healthy cultures. Why is it that we still have so much burnout in the corporate space?
Zoe Fragou
For starters, I would say that variation that is pushing us into creating better cultures has to do a lot with Gen Z, joining the workforce. This is the generation that had the best caretakers, and the caretakers, with the most access to psychology and psychotherapy, and living a better life. And therefore, they accept much less they know how to set boundaries, and they actually show up to to fight for empowering mental health and diversity and equality in the workspace. Therefore, it’s not necessarily that I will say employers changed, but they had to adapt in order to retain this new age and new philosophy as a workforce. The reason we have so much burnout is because previous generations are not equally good at that we didn’t grow up like that, we grew up thinking that it’s all about being obsessed, and it’s all about getting there and making it and with mantras, like, lonely at the top, even, I would say, not just popularizing, but idolizing this whole concept of in order to make it you need to burn out. Otherwise, we don’t try hard enough. Basically, I would say the balance is not very trendy.
Scott Ritzheimer
Right. Right. And and so you bring up the point balance, and it was actually my next question, do you have a statement on your website that says that the balance in people’s inner identities fight toxic work culture? Can you unpack that for us a little bit, because that’s a surprising statement.
Zoe Fragou
But for starters, there’s a lot of research that talks about how being multi dimensional is the best way for a shelter personality. That means that the more elements a person’s self identifies with, then the less burden they put in each individual element. And then by default, they experience less pressure and less negative emotions. For example, imagine a person who is I don’t know, a lawyer, and also they’re married. And then they work together in the same office with, let’s say, your husband, okay, so this wife, lawyer and the husband, and then imagine the same woman, and she’s a lawyer, your husband’s doctor, she also has two kids, and she’s also running for mayor in her neighborhood. And she’s also kitesurfing, and she has all the friends. And when she has a bad day at work, or she gets a divorce, which of the two women are gonna deal with it better, and they’re going to recover better, the second one, because even if you feel like you failed, or one of these identities didn’t work over the others, you’re going to be better. And then put that in a work environment. Now, we have again, people that are putting all of the burden into their work identity. And on the other hand, we have actually much more balance people that we might love their work bad is just a piece of their identity. It’s not their entire Who do you think is going to be more accepting and easy to mentor? And better at setting boundaries and showing empathy and understanding their teammates?
Scott Ritzheimer
Right. I think that’s so true. Because there’s this tendency that we have an identity is such a good word for it, but to say I am something right and it may be as simple as like I am not good at details. I’m not a detail person. than or I am a salesperson or I am. And and whenever someone comes to mentor us and help us to upgrade that version of ourselves, right to grow a new set of skills to maybe even challenge something that we’ve accepted, if it if it pokes at our our identity, it’s very difficult to accept that if I pride myself on being something, and someone says, Hey, there’s actually something else for you. That’s very difficult. Would you agree with that?
Zoe Fragou
Well, of course, I agree. Because every time you ask someone who are you first sit down their names, and then what they’re doing? And come out of this question is really asking, Why are you? But if you really want to know that person, tell them, let’s say that you are today, I don’t know, an engineer in a tech firm. And for tomorrow, that’s illegal. You can do anything that has to do with data computing, and anything, who would you be? And then the person that has something to answer that are in a better place than the person who doesn’t have anything else to answer, right? I think this exercise in the personal development works about was running in Budapest some time ago. And it was it was shocking how many people started crying after one minute of asking them, who are you? Who are you? Okay, firstly, we’ll tell you their names. And then I’m doing this and then I’m this kind of person. And then what? And then, like, it was amazing, because you have 30 people crying and saying, I’ve no idea who I am.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, it’s fascinating. There’s, there’s the set of stages, particularly I work a lot with founders. And so you kind of founding business owners and and they they run without answering that question for a very long time. You’re, there’s so many things competing for their attention, they can look so successful on the outside, that they can avoid answering that question for quite a while. And it’s usually not until the later stages of their progression as a founder that they come face to face with us. And what’s so shocking. It’s actually what I would sort of call the defining question of stage five of the process that’s not necessarily relevant to this. But these are really successful founders, they’ve beat the odds time and time again. And it’s shocking to anyone who’s not in this stage that they’d be sitting back asking who am I? But anyone who’s in that stage, though, like, Yes, that’s absolutely. Because what happens is, they start to recognize they are not their business. They’re two separate things.
Zoe Fragou
Which actually watching an interview by Cameron Diaz, you know, the famous, famous actress, and they were asking her why she abandoned acting. And she said that she realized that she had this part of herself, which was acting high performing for so long that after a while, she didn’t even realize that she couldn’t do anything else anymore. Because there are always people taking care of everything else. That is not this one thing that’s high performing she also said, I start, I started feeling incompetent. Because at one point, I couldn’t cook for myself, I couldn’t take care of myself, I couldn’t even drive myself, I couldn’t do anything else. But this one thing, and this one thing wasn’t enough anymore. So if a person who leads such you know, amazing life, like being a movie star, and having such Glamour or whatever, say that it wasn’t enough, these one thing no matter how good it was, how is supposed to be a nine to five job, enough for anyone else?
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. Wow. Wow, that’s remarkable. And so what do we do about it? Yeah, what, you know, if someone’s sitting there saying, like, Hey, I’ve given myself to my work. And, and for a long time, it’s been, you know, super satisfying and successful, but I can see the writing on the wall, I can see that this is starting to change, what are some steps that they can take to start to correct that and bring some balance into their life?
Zoe Fragou
Well, self inflection. Sit down and ask yourself, Who am I? But ask yourself for one minute straight again? And again, who am I? And then if you don’t have answers, move on to okay, what am I doing now? Why, why am I doing this exercise? Push yourself? And then you get to an actual answer that makes sense as to why do you need these? And then focus on that need? What do I want? And then when you find out who you are, and why you’re doing this exercise, and what do you want, go invest in these things, go and spend time, because the truth is that all we are in this slide is the connections you make. And I’m the last person to say that work is not important. I’m literally a person who made work their work. So of course we bore them. But it’s not enough. I do need a support system where I can share everything that they do. And they actually make everything more important because I’m able to share and only my hobbies and other things that are important. It sometimes these things are not necessarily, you know, be like watching a show watching a series or taking a walk or going bowling, but I do need all the small different pieces to come and create the big picture of who I am. And I think that’s true for everyone. It’s just that many people haven’t really realized what their small pieces are.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, wow. So wondering if you can kind of put bow on this for us. There’s a question I like to ask everybody. And it’s this, what is the biggest secret that you wish wasn’t a secret at all? What’s that one thing that you wish everybody listening or watching today knew?
Zoe Fragou
That I would say that self awareness is not something static. And there’s nothing I hate more than people telling me. I know myself. How do you know yourself? Like, he can do anything, right? Just be changing every five minutes. And the thing that was true yesterday is the same thing you should be doubting today. Of course, I’m not talking about core values. Yeah. Okay. If you’re a person who I don’t know, he’s very open to love, that’s probably not going to change. But what about everything else? That’s not core? Because the core is two or three elements, everything else should be up to change up to evolution. And it’s not a secret. Self awareness is dynamic, because you should be dynamic. And you should be always aiming for that.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, yeah, that’s so good. So I’m wondering if you could, I’m gonna have you take off your kind of coach, advisor, psychologist hat for a moment, you’re a business owner, as well. So put on your CEO hat and talk to us what’s the next stage of growth look like for you and your business? And what, what challenge we have to overcome to get there?
Zoe Fragou
Okay. I think that I’m going to face that many business owners have been at one point that too many things are being run by me. Hence, it’s very hard to scale when everything’s run by you. Therefore, I’m in a situation where I need to understand how am I going to scale right now at the team, it’s me and the hub four people that support me. My editor, my videographer, my personal assistant, and another psychologist, who is handling the one to one coaching sessions. But still, you know, clients, they eventually come to the office, and they want to have a session with me, or they want me to run the speech. So how do I move with that, because I still have 24 hours per day. And that’s what I’m trying to solve right now.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yes, yeah, it’s a very good problem to have but a very real problem to have at the same time.
Zoe Fragou
I think it’s a classic, I think that everyone will who was scaling on the one hand, I’m very, very proud. And I’m really happy that I’m scaling. But on the other hand, how do I clone myself?
Scott Ritzheimer
Yes, 100%. And, yeah, and so it’s Yeah, again, it’s a classic approach. Are you moving from that star player? Right, the one that everybody wants to being that Captain on the field and leading everyone together? It’s it’s a fun but difficult process. But one that I know you’ll do? Well, so some, some folks are listening today. And there’s, I can imagine two groups, there’s the leaders who are saying, yes, there are people in my organization that are not a fit. And I don’t know if there’s something I can do about it. Well, you help and then there’s some others are saying, Hey, I’m feeling like I don’t fit in my organization. And I’m wondering, can you help so where can they find more out about the work that you do? And and get in touch with you?
Zoe Fragou
Well, for starters, on we millennial sounds super active in other social media, you can find me on LinkedIn for starters, and then everywhere else from Tiktok to Instagram, and I have my own website, which is fragouzoe.com. And yeah, take it from there. I’ve released several interviews and also articles and right now I’m also writing a book on burnout. So you’re gonna be hearing more of me, thankfully.
Scott Ritzheimer
Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, Zoey, thank you so much for being on the show. It’s just a pleasure having you here today. And for everyone watching listening you know your time and attention mean the world to us. I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I know I did. If you love this episode, if it added any value for you, please like and subscribe so you can get more of great content like this, and I cannot wait to see you next time. Take care.
Contact Zoe Fragou
Mrs Fragou is an Organizational Psychologist with an MSc in Human Resources Management, a clinical psychologist license, a diploma in Business Coaching & Mentorship and a Certificate in Agile Leadership. At the moment, she is a PhD Candidate at Panteion University and her research is mainly focused on the psychometrics of the corporate culture. Alongside her academic interests, she is operating professionally in the full spectrum of her science, taking over projects of culture transformation, employee training and development, business coaching to name a few. She is a senior member of the Hellenic Institute of Coaching and was voted best career coach in the Global Coaching Conference of 2021.
Want to learn more about Zoe Fragou’s work? Check out her website at https://www.fragouzoe.com/ and connect with her on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/fragouzoe/
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