In this venturesome episode, Wayne Barringer, Founder and CEO of Jaro Group, shares how he helps leaders find the roadmap to fix team challenges making them more efficient, impactful, and joyful.
You will discover:
– Why you shouldn’t see hiring a consultant as an admission of defeat
– How to know if you have the right amount of structure for your team
– How to have difficult conversations with leaders who aren’t keeping up
Episode Transcript
Scott Ritzheimer
Hello Hello and welcome. Welcome once again to the secrets of the high demand coach podcast and I am here with yet another high demand coach and that is the one the only Wayne Barringer. Now in 2018. Wayne climbed Mount Kilimanjaro, and it is a transformative experience that has changed his focus on leadership, and how to help people at work on their climb to fulfillment and success. The lessons he learned on that trip up, Kilimanjaro helped him to transform a very struggling team. From Boeing, they had a 450 2% employee satisfaction rating not great, and it was able to turn it around to 89%, which is awesome. In three years. Since then, he’s helped teams from billion dollar companies such as Hasbro Cognizant UK, GE and university such as UW Madison, and Jackson State University, as well as nonprofits, small companies, and more. Now his life’s mission is to guide those who want to achieve more peace and fulfillment and impact at work. Well, Wayne, I’m excited to be here cannot wait to dive into this. But I’ve just got to hear the story, right? It’s not an easy track. I’ve got some friends who who’ve done it. I don’t know that I’m that brave. Right. But, but I’d love to hear just a little bit. What was it like climbing a mountain that high? And then how does that translate into the work that you do for clients today?
Wayne Barringer
Great question. First of all I’ll tell you. I didn’t know I was that breed either. So I’ve been an executive coach. I was in Boeing. And one of the things he did was he took a number of his clients from around the country on a rock climbing trip. So he, he put it together he paid for we just had to get there. And I never rock climb for I never really even climbed mountains before. And the night before the rock climbing trip. We were all having dinner, a couple glasses of wine. And he at the end of the dinner said, Hey, here’s some photos of which replied to every September. Would you like to go to Kilimanjaro? And of course, we all landed nonbreeding many barriers. Speight said, yeah, we’d love to do that. And I will get the next dates and what have I just agreed to do. He might be able to tell about my voice. I’ve got some breathing challenges. I’ve had surgeries on my throat things. And so all of that started to come in, like, well, what am I down this mountain is 19,000 feet plus, I don’t know what I’m doing. So choose to know that if you’re a little fearful, I believe now that’s just your body and your mind. Get you ready? So. So we took that we trained all summer. I asked 32 of my friends emailed him and said, Hey, I’m going on this trip you wanted to go with? What I didn’t do is give them a glass of wine before I asked him that question. Because only one person said yes. And of all 32 I coursed my oldest son to go, and another friend of a friend, one that goes so I had four buddies. And then there were four others their seven day trip, just a phenomenal experience, very challenging, but it is not like Mount Everest, right? So people don’t die go into Kilimanjaro. Like, I think it’s one out of 10 or something die on Everest, which is just insane. It’s a whole that’s a whole different level of danger and things like that. This is basically a seven day hike. When you’re sleeping on the ground, on a mountain, in the middle of Africa, it’s it’s phenomenal. Well, it’s challenging. It’s inspiring. It’s, it’s all the things.
Scott Ritzheimer
Wow. I had a connecting flight once in Salt Lake City, Utah, and just walking across the air airport at 4000 feet. I was like it’s the hike. I think I could do even the climbing. Sounds interesting. And just getting used to the elevation has always just it’s got the best of me but So walk me through a little bit. You’re standing up on top of of mountain Kilimanjaro what goes through your mind at a moment like that.
Wayne Barringer
Yes I mean when you’re at the top it’s the most amazing feeling let me set the stage for why he spent six months training you about fear and anxiety and and elation and all the things that go with training and anticipating a trip like that. On day three, up the mountain. I turned to one of my friends and said I think we overtrained like, I feel like Superman does is fantastic. 30 minutes later, I blacked out. I was disoriented. I didn’t know where I was. And I my sense was there was nobody else around me and I was lost. But Africa just to the most dressed moment. That head guide of the whole trip showed up and I was very emotional like, oh my god, I’m so glad to see you like tears and hugs. And he took my backpack, put it on his back and said, she just stepped in my footsteps that will get to the next camp, an amazing transformative moment. And three days later, that guy with a funny voice with a small airway is at the top of the roof of Africa is what they call it, the highest moment on that continent. So when you’re at the top, having gone through, whatever anyone has to go through to get there. Just amazing, the most beautiful sunrise, you can imagine, from an elevation that we just don’t get to see at once you’re in an airplane roadway. 360 degrees. Most amazing, you know, bond with the people you climbed with. And those guides that did everything you can imagine to help you get there. Those guys are there, too. It’s just awesome. And who else in business we often feel and sometimes in life, like, are in it alone? And it’s all into media and all this? That’s one of the things I learned on that trip. It’s, it’s not just up to you like, Yes, I made the highest Yes, I put my feet in front of the other. If they were once up without I, I wouldn’t have a story, I wouldn’t be able to do it. I probably would have just missed out up there. And who knows what would have happened? So that’s a big lesson is you always got help, is have to find it or sometimes it finds you.
Scott Ritzheimer
Wow. Wow. So you come back, you kind of back to the little bit of the real world, it’s hard to say that anything would be more real than that. But you’re back to, let’s say, the corporate world? And when did it start to strike you that some of the things you learned on that track were going to be applicable, not just on the side of a mountain, but as you’re working inside of an organization?
Wayne Barringer
Yeah, I think you know, at that time, I was at Boeing. And when you’re in a, like a W2 environment, I’ve learned now being in a consultant and out of my own consulting business, that the mindset of a W two employee, at least for me, it was not the same mindset that require is required on me now. So it took a little bit for some of the repeatable lessons to emerge. But some of the initial lessons were even that piece about help. Were like, there were times in that been turned around at Boeing, with a it was a it was not the whole company. Obviously, it was one team who created marketing team, among a few 100 people. And when you do when I turn around going like that, it can feel like all the pressure is on you like you can breathe pretty well sometimes and all that and what I learned from that, just look around, there’s, there’s help, there’s connections. And sometimes we get in our own way of making those connections. If you just kind of seek it out, it will find you and that was one of the key lessons.
Scott Ritzheimer
Wow. So fast forward then to today. You’re not in a W2 role anymore. You’ve been helping businesses for a while now, some very, very reputable organizations. What would you say some of the most important work you’re doing today for your clients?
Wayne Barringer
I think I see a lot of companies, teams and individuals in distress at work. And it’s clearly on worse since COVID. Or at least it has changed a bit since COVID are much more tech liat now everything is virtual now are so much more as virtual now. We see the quantities of work requested of marketing teams increase. And in some cases, in particular, with 10 companies, the number of people to get that work done, has decreased. So there’s a lot of distress. And it’s really why I changed the name of my company, to Pajaro group after the Kilimanjaro experience, because this distress is not all like what I felt. You know, that day that I sort of blacked out on the mountain, while we try to do is take the backpacks off the backs of all of our clients and help them get to where they’re trying to go. If they don’t use a guy, this is one thing that is one thing I didn’t know, wait a few years ago. And then the other statistic I learned after the Kilimanjaro piece. Harvard Business Review says that 70% of corporate change in America fails the greatest economy, some of the greatest companies in the history of the world. And two thirds of the time that we fail trying to make improvement at an organizational level 70% of the people that attempt to climb Kilimanjaro succeed so 70% of failure 77% success? What’s the difference? Well, the difference on the Kilimanjaro is we got about eight guides, helping us up out now. There is no way we can make it without authority. there’s water, there’s food, there’s tents, there’s all the things for a week. The same is true in corporations, a lot of leaders don’t hire guides, because they think they have to do it themselves, or they want to do it themselves. But the ones that do succeed, and we want to be there, for those critical few that nobody need to help them know they want help. And and they know they can’t do it themselves, or they can do it better, with some help that had been there.
Scott Ritzheimer
So folks who have listened to the podcast for a while will know that I had some really bad experiences with coaches early on, and I bought into that exact thing that you’re talking about, you know, if it’s going to happen, it’s up to me, right? And I would say it was up to me and my team was in in that bubble, right. But we we we were not great at looking outside and and then we clumsily went out looking for help when we got stuck. And that didn’t work very well, either. I also had just a couple of tremendous coaches that that produced this huge transformation for us, both as an organization and me as a leader. So I’ve seen both sides of that. But you’re right, a lot of folks, particularly for managers, I’ve found for kind of mid level meter leaders are folks inside of bigger enterprises, there’s this sense of, Well, if that if it’s not my job to figure those things out that what is my job, right? If I bring you in, it’s an admission of defeat. It’s some sign of inadequacy. So how do you help folks to overcome that because it’s dead wrong?
Wayne Barringer
It is 100%, dead wrong? Totally agree with that. And again, it just goes back to the thing we’ve been talking about here for a minute, which is whether you think you’re alone, or you’re not. You are getting help from somewhere. And the whole notion is, why would you not want your organization and perform at the very best and you as an individual to perform at their very best. And if you think you’re that primary intelligence, do that just mistake and it just, you just haven’t gained the knowledge and the perspective to see if there was a very few people, very few that are so confident in their abilities. And so self reliant, and soul driven and determined, and we know who they are Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, Bill Gates, like the list is short. But for the rest of us mere mortals, some of that perspective is massive. So what we try to do to help them is we give him a lot of information, a lot of tips and tricks away. To help them understand that everybody thinks they know, for example, how to manage their own calendar. But the very first thing when I ask people, What is your number one challenge, they say? I’m so busy, I don’t know what to do with myself? Well, wait a minute, right. So when we’ve come up with a very simple formula, it’s called the 123, on your calendar formula, that you can eliminate the average client of ours eliminates four to eight hours, unnecessary meetings a week. That’s just what the simple trick. So those are some of the things that we try to help people see, without charging. And then, you know, with our, with our paying clients with our engaged situations, we go much deeper down, and we help them to save even more time that so that’s just an example of outcome can kind of get out of their own way, we can help them see a broader view.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, it’s fascinating to think about, and I’ve seen similar things with some of our clients. And, you know, there’s just so much that we’re hanging on to that we don’t need to be hanging on to anymore. And, and it just takes, sometimes it just takes an outside perspective to just shine a light on that for a moment, you know, because these are smart leaders in they’re not incompetent people owning your calendar is not rocket science. But it’s perspective that’s missing, right. And someone bringing a coach in from the outside is such a great way of adding to that now, I notice as I was kind of researching some of the work that you do that you’ve got this cool sense of adding some structure where it’s necessary and removing some structure where it’s getting in the way, right. So how do you help folks to kind of understand if they have, you know, maybe not enough process or, or too much system and process and it’s getting in the way of their effectiveness?
Wayne Barringer
Absolutely. I think we see in the marketing space and Kleist, we tend to have more of our the creative that kind of execution marketing teams Those teams tend to tend to be bigger they have to deliver. So there’s a level of efficiency and impact they have to drive, as opposed to just sort of not just strategy, but it’ll be focused on some things that are a little less tangible. We often get asked to come and help, you know, fix a process or processes broken. And when we do that, when we go in and investigate that through discovery, what we always find, and I certainly found this, through the successes and the mistakes that we made at Boeing, and with that team, that all process is a reflection of the strategy, the structure and the talent on top of that process. So we always counsel, and this is the primary thing that we loved our teams and groups do. What is your North Star? What’s your organization’s purpose for being? What’s that? That that North Star? What’s that one? Beacon? That in confusion in times of chaos, you can look at and go oh, yeah, that’s the path. If you don’t have that, it doesn’t matter what your process is, it’s going to be wrong. Yeah. The next level is structure. So once you have that, Northstar, what roles do you need in the organization to achieve that Northstar? Not people’s names. That’s another thing we see people do is we say that they say, oh, we need to reorg why you can help us do that. Well, why didn’t need to reorder? Well, I just want to move Johnny over here to Susie’s role. Okay, why, right? Like people are just there, they’re stuck on the familiar, which is a very human, the tree and characteristic. So if you can look at the structure, without names just don’t roles and outcomes you need from those roles. And now you’ve got the framework that you need. And then you can look at the talent, and put the best people, not just everybody in your group, the best people, or those new roles into those roles, and then find out where you have gaps, and do some teaching, do some coaching, provide some skills that some of the other folks don’t yet have. So they can maybe fill those rings. And then where you can’t, you need to sometimes supplement from the outside. So then underneath that process, and then tools, but if you don’t have those top three, you’re not gonna have the right processes or tools.
Scott Ritzheimer
So this idea, we call it heads to hats, right, this transition of, you know, PTO, the person wearing the hat to the actual hat that we need worn? And and what I found is one, it’s really hard to think that way, isn’t it? Right? Especially when you’re not used to thinking that right? You know, and even if you want to team during a session, I’m sure you’ve seen this as well. Like, they’ll start with a bunch of names they make no what we really need is their roles, what are we looking for, and they’ll go to roles. And then you’ll go to like, let’s execute on this. And they’ll go right back to names again, you know, it’s just this this habitual human like you said, thing. But what I found makes that process hard are the conversations that happen between where we are heads based, right? People based to we’ve actually got people in the right seats with the right hats on. And where I see org chart endeavors fail is that we won’t step into those conversations. Is that something that you’ve seen as well?
Wayne Barringer
Yeah, I just loved what you said that absolutely, I think, no old notion of, you know, leaders, and especially in yours today, want to be servant leaders, they want to be connected to their teams, they almost want to caretake their teams, and when you caretake they become family and they become family, you don’t. And you don’t get rid of them. You don’t you know, we always talk about a continuum. And that continuum on one end is this idea of character, which is almost what people first has become, which is the needs of the people and the most important thing goes almost on the business. So it’s an extreme, very few people are on this extreme, but many, many people are absorbed this side, the other side is high performance. And the extreme side of that is sort of this autocratic you know, orchids enterprise level efficiency, and those sort of things. Very few people today are over here, we get there. But we see people toward either end and what we try to help them do is see that there’s a sweet spot if it’s one to 10 between four, five and six, where you want to come and be most of the time. Certainly, we want to care about people we want to support people. And if the business isn’t performing, people aren’t going to have roles and they’re not going to be fulfilled. So that’s I love to your point and we talk about this all the time and this is a model that retrain yours.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, that caretaker. Here we go straight to the heart of the issue does it? Yeah, it’s and because you know, servant leaders, it’s fascinating you’ll see and someone will sit there and they’ll look over at the High Performance autocratic and, and pride themselves on not being that. And then if we’re not careful, we’ll end up hiding behind that servant leader ship thing and being a servant leader is not shying away from difficult conversations. That’s right. And being a servant leader is actually stepping into those difficult conversations because you know, it’s right for for the team. Oh, yeah, we’re poke we’re stepping on some toes here, Wayne, are stepping on some toes. So let’s just kind of walk through the process, because I think it’s a really, really big one. And it’s been one of the more transformative changes I’ve seen organizations make. I’d love to hear when it comes time to have some of those conversations. What what are some ways that maybe what are some ways that we do that wrong? And what are some ways that we can do it right?
Wayne Barringer
I think the biggest way that I used to do it wrong, I would just be the first to raise my hand. Because then you go into it with a sense of anxiety and confrontation. As a leader, this person, in my mind is not doing their job. that frustrates me because I have to have this conversation in the first place. I just want it to be autopilot, why can’t you do what you’re supposed to do? Right? Like, that’s all the junk that goes on up here. And if that’s what you allow yourself to go into the conversation with its, it is doomed from the start. If you can go into it with a completely different mindset. And this takes some some personal work at first, before, right like what we always start by asking clients, who is the leader, you want to become an almost every, every prospect or client says, Wow, I’ve never thought about that. I’ve thought about the idols that I want. And the promotions that I haven’t gotten yet and the money that I want to make, that has nothing to do with that person inside here that’s going to come in times of good or times of challenge. Who is that leader you want to come and if you can do some of that work, and understand some of the techniques of being balanced and in the moment. And you can go into those hard conversations, and be a caretaker and a high performance leader at the same time. Just because you want high performance does not mean we’re shaking our fingers at people. It is accountability with, you know, this mentality instead of this mentality. So that’s one of the best ways that I’ve learned is you don’t want to be that person. And we’re always regretful when we let ourselves slip into that. So it just takes practice, and sort of, you know, hypothetical muscle building to be able to enter it with that notion of hey, here’s what we said we were going to do. Here’s what we did, and did it do. Here’s how I’m going to help you get it done. And then you’re going to be able to do it yourself.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. I love that. I love that way. It’s so easy to jump straight into. That’s their problem, or I’m dealing with their problem. And if we don’t check ourselves before we walk through the door, it is wonderful, wonderful advice in there. All right. So here’s a question. I like to ask everyone. And it’s this. What is the biggest secret that you wish just wasn’t a secret at all? What’s the one thing that you wish everybody out there listening or watching today knew?
Wayne Barringer
Now that’s a great question. I would say that, for me, the biggest secret that I never knew, until I started doing this work and really started diving into how to help people and things that helped me is this notion that you don’t always have to be hyper competitive, and then frustrated when things don’t work out. That you can be intense about what you want to accomplish, and be balanced about the outcome and be balanced about the people around you. As opposed to putting some people here and some people here. So this notion of balance perspective and intensity and detachment from the outcome. We will always heard that I’d probably heard it for 10 years before it finally like oh, it actually works better. You know, there’s a fear of letting go of what we are conditioned to be. I’d say that’s that’s the big thing for me.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. Yeah, that was that was a lesson that took a long time for me as well. And I have to credit my experience with that too. To les McKeown, a friend and mentor of mine and close colleague and you know his ability to step all the way in with care and compassion and and that intensity and then walk away you know, completely unfazed by what came of it, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s yeah, it’s it’s a skill. But even more than that, I think to your point, it’s a mindset right If we can walk in with that mindset as far easier to engage fully, and not be caught on, what could possibly go wrong, so good. So, one more question for you. And then I want to make sure folks know how they can get in touch with you and hear more about your work. But before we get there, I’m gonna have you take your coach consultant hat off for a moment, put your CEO hat on, if he will jump down into the ring with the rest of us. What’s the next stage of growth look like for you and your business? And what challenge will you have to overcome to get there?
Wayne Barringer
I think another great question, or a big challenge for 2024. And beyond, is scale. So the more we give out there, the more we find that people that our message resonates with. And till now, it’s been amazing for me to be, you know, the primary part of a lot of that interaction. I know always, as we handle up to 24. And then we’re 25. That scalability and that ability for me to be able to use what some people call my unique ability, and let the other things be entrusted, and then a little train, and then trust more or to others. That’s a big key. We’re going to do more workshops than we’ve ever done this year, I probably going to be a little larger than they’d ever been. And hopefully, even, you know, 10x the value. That just doesn’t happen because Wayne has a wish, right? There has to be at work and like we just to come full circle, there’s going to be a group of people that are going to need to help with that, which I’m very blessed out along with me. So I see that’s the big key for us is the ability to scale. And for me to get out of my own way.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. A hard but exciting is hard. Especially when, and a lot of founders face this, especially when they’re in this kind of professional service where to an extent you are the product, right? We start separating those who’s like, whoa, wait a second, who actually Am I ever if I’m not the you know? And so, yeah, it’s it’s it again, it’s exciting, but a challenging time. So I’m looking forward to these workshops, amplifying your impact. I think it’s gonna be fantastic. More people need to hear from you. And on that note, how can folks find more out about maybe your workshops or the work that you do for your clients?
Wayne Barringer
Oh, that’s great. I’m on LinkedIn, of course, LinkedIn slash Wayne Barringer
cachorro group is a page on LinkedIn. Our website is jaro.win. So j a r o like kilimanjaro.win. And then my email is [email protected]. Super happy to help anybody who wants or needs a tool or a tip. There’s lots of content on our LinkedIn page. Completely free. We are not people that try to sell our mindset as we enroll. So if you’re looking for what we offer, we’ll let you know what we offer and you’re free to enroll. So there’s no strings attached to any of that and love to help anybody.
Scott Ritzheimer
Fantastic well Wayne, just a phenomenal conversation has so enjoyed it. There’s so much richness and depth in there. Thank you so much. And for those of you watching and listening, you know your time and attention mean the world to us. I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I know I did and I cannot wait to see you next time. Take care.
Contact Wayne Barringer
In 2018, Wayne Barringer climbed Mt. Kilimanjaro. It’s a transformative experience that changed his focus on leadership and how to help people at work on their climb to fulfillment and excellence. The lessons he learned on Kilimanjaro helped him transform a very struggling team at Boeing from 52% employee satisfaction to 89% in three years. Since then he helped teams from billion-dollar companies such as Hasbro, Cognizant, UKG, universities such as UW Medicine and Jackson State University, non-profits, small companies, and more. His life’s mission is to guide those who want to achieve more peace, fulfillment and impact at work.
Want to learn more about Wayne Barringer’s work at Jaro Group? Check out his website at https://www.jaro.win/
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