In this provoking episode, Julie G. Holunga, Principal and Executive Coach of Chinook Executive Solutions, shares how she helps driven professionals build leadership skills that lead them to their following levels of success.
You will discover:
– Simple steps for remote teams to foster constructive conflict
– How to protect the “only” in the room and get the best contribution from them
– The actual cost of conflict-avoidant, lazy leadership
Episode Transcript
Scott Ritzheimer
Hello Hello and welcome welcome once again to the secrets of the high demand coach podcast. I am here with yet another high demand coach. That is the one the only Julie Holunga. And now Julie is a leadership trainer and executive coach. She develops professional service leaders with expertise in the careers of female professionals. Now, before starting her consulting practice, Julie served as a project manager for the alumni Career Services at you may have heard of it Harvard Business School, focusing on advancing their female alums careers, she worked all as well with Fortune 500 companies to retain and move women into leadership positions. Now Julie earned her Bachelors of Arts at Union College and her MBA at Boston College. She also completed coursework in another little known institution, she studied neuroscience and business at Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Suffice it to say, Julie knows a thing or two about the topics we’re going to cover here today, and a whole lot more. Well, Julie, so excited to have you on the show. I told you ahead of time, I’ve got so many questions. I don’t know how we’re gonna fit them all in. But I know I’m gonna learn something here today. So without further ado, without me talking anymore, welcome to the show. Why don’t you start us off? Before we get to some of the work you’re doing with clients these days? How did you get into this? How did you go from, you know, this impressive background to doing what you’re doing today?
Julie G. Holunga
Thank you, Scott, I’m excited to have this conversation with you. So really, I always tell people, whether it’s clients or people starting out in their careers, you know, we always think like we have this plan, and we’re going to be on this path. And there are always things that come up that we don’t expect that. Now instead of being on this ladder for our careers, I think of it as this lattice approach. So I had been, as you mentioned, at Harvard Business School, working with alumni and really helping them figure out where they want to be in their careers, what they want to be doing may be different than what they always had been doing. And I realized that I really loved the those days where I got to interact with, either with the alumni or with at the time, it was mostly Wall Street firms, who are looking to retain and advance their female leaders. And I really loved those one on one conversations that I was having with with our alumni, and we left Boston, I married a Canadian, we left Boston, we moved to Canada. And our kids were really little at the time. And I realized during that time that it really was this. This it was very energizing to me to interact with people and advise them and ask them some really good questions. So then we moved to Denver, just outside of Denver, Colorado. And at that point, my kids were full time in school. And I had this moment, this real pivotal moment where I loved my job, I loved what I was doing. But I wanted to do more. I wanted to be able to help these individuals, and the teams that they were working on even more. And I never forget this moment. But I was laying in bed I had a stomach bug I had torn my Achilles, like just everything that physically could go wrong seem to be going wrong. And I was laying in bed and I had this thought, I advise people all day long on their careers. But I never took a step back to think about what do I want? And what how do I want to be spending my days. And I was really privileged to work for some amazing women. And I brought it up to them. And I said, I don’t know exactly what it looks like or what I could be doing. But hear the thoughts going through my head. And one of the women who I had met at Harvard Business School, it’s just as amazing. And she said, you know, you got to talk to this person, you got to talk to this person. And six weeks later, I was starting a coaching program. So it was just great. And it really has pulled together all of the curiosity I have in people and being able loving to support people and being on this journey with them. You know, I always say like, I’m next to you on this journey to get where they want to go. And whether that’s an individual as a leader, and how they show up as a leader or as a team and how they operate together as as, as one unit. And and what that looks like. Yeah, I love it. So well, let’s fast forward today, then you’re getting to pull in all these different skill sets. What would you say is some of the most important work you’re doing with your clients? Yeah, so it’s really interesting in the last year and a half, two years, you know, our world continues to shift. And what I’ve noticed is that, as you know, four years ago, almost four years ago, which is crazy to think about, you know, we all were sent home, and how we interacted completely changed. And everyone thought, oh, you know a year later, two years later, we’re back in the office to some degree it’ll just go back the way it was. And it hasn’t right none of us have. And so really helping people think about how they interact. So how they deal with conflict, right? Because it’s different. If we’re not physically in the same place, I, I would offer different advice than if we can be together to deal with conflict, how to make conflict really good. And it’s, I love to say, conflict is constructive and bait. how people communicate is quite different. And I would say probably two or three times a day, I’m talking to leaders about well, what is the other person need to hear? Well, you know, I need them to know this. Yeah, yeah, I got that. But what do they need to hear? So what I would say, is really thinking about the other person, and what they need to hear how they need to hear it, as opposed to simply what you need to say or how you want to say it. It’s, it’s really thinking about both of those things. And I shared this recently that I’m on this mission to rid our world of lazy leadership. Because too often we get so caught up in whatever the task is that we’re doing, or what we’re trying to accomplish, that we don’t think about, how does this person need to hear what I have to say? Or how do we deal with this conflict, and really stop avoiding having these conversations that are a little bit uncomfortable. And because I really see, especially in the last couple of years that we need leaders who communicate clearly, and they don’t, indirectly, and don’t sugarcoat something, right? Like the compliment sandwich does not work, whatever anyone tells you, it does not work. That I really hope that leaders start to see conflict as a necessity, in order to innovate, to be thoughtful to grow, and that they really think about the language that they’re they’re using when they’re talking to people.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, we use a similar phrase, we call it being ruthlessly constructive. And I mean, you absolutely hit on a chord here that I think is a massive issue for folks. How do you do that remotely? Because it is different, right? It’s easier to just someone else can deal with that it’s easier to sit there with our video off and watch the slow motion train wreck. Right? So Well, first, let’s define what is constructive conflict look like? And then second, how do we how do we build that into the normal way we work even if we’re remote?
Julie G. Holunga
Right, right. So when I think of constructive conflict, first and foremost, that’s that some some of your audience may have heard this term, this idea of that they have psychological safety. So Amy Edmondson, and Harvard Business School came up with this theory of when we are able to speak with a new idea, and not feel that we’re going to be, you know, get pushed back or get fired. Worst case scenario, because we speak up. So when people have that psychological safety, that foundation of, I can share a crazy idea, it might be dismissed in a way that like, that would be awesome, but we don’t have the resources for it. But I’m able to throw something out there. And I feel safe to take a risk and sharing an idea. So if we have that foundation of psychological safety, then we can have constructive conflict. And by constructive conflict, basically, my my approach of conflict is good, it can be good. And in fact, we need it to come up with different ways of operating, come up with a different service or product that we’re delivering. If we are sitting amongst the team, and Scott, you’re our leader, and you throw out a crazy idea, and we’re like, oh, yeah, let’s do it. And we don’t have the resources, the bandwidth, the it out the finances to do it, but I’m just gonna say yes to everything you say, that’s not constructive. Right? So when I think of constructive conflict is look at it as we’re looking at the task and not the person, I take the personnel aspect out of it. And focus on we have the same desired end result, like we’re trying to grow this company or trying to make this service to our clients even better, or we’re trying to make how we deliver the service even more efficient. And so maybe it’s how can we use AI to help us do our work even better? And there may be people who don’t agree with that, right? But if we’re able to pull out all of the ideas and really stay focused on the idea or the task and not pull here come Scott again, with some crazy idea that’s never gonna happen, right? Because then we just shut off completely to the possibilities right. When I see teams operating where they are seeing they do see conflict as constructive would often happens if someone loves in some crazy idea. And they’re not going with that idea, but it gets them to something, it gets them thinking in a different way. So that’s really constructive. Like if I throw out some idea, and you’re like, Absolutely not. But you got me thinking, what about this? To me? That’s constructive conflict and that success? Because we’re able to be innovative that way.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, I think you hit on such a key point that is that is that they see conflict as constructive. There are two groups that I do most of my work with. There are founder led organizations, most of them businesses, and then I work with nonprofits as well. And both of them are horrible at this, right? for very different reasons. So one is the founder is the one bringing you the crazy ideas, and no one’s gonna tell the founder, what to do with their business. And then, in the nonprofit world, like they see conflict as being antithetical to their purpose, right. They’re trying to bring help and unity. And, you know, we’ve rainbows and unicorns to some extent. And both of those environments, they struggle to see conflict as constructive. What’s the cost of that?
Julie G. Holunga
Without? Well, what I see is lack of growth, lack of innovation, lack of productivity, lack of alignment, you lose people, and that might be your employees, your clients or customers or for the nonprofit, it’s, who they’re supporting, or who they’re getting their donations from. Because.
Scott Ritzheimer
And I think. Yeah, yeah, what’s crazy about that is I could not agree more. But those are the reasons why we don’t pursue conflict, right? It’s not your you’re hanging on to the very thing that you’re gonna lose by doing it that way. So I want to bring us back to my original question and kind of let you do a two for one here. Uh huh. So how do we create constructive conflict, especially in the remote environment that we’re all working in right now?
Julie G. Holunga
Right, right. So I always look at this, whether it’s conflict, difficult conversation, whatever it might be, it’s, it’s twofold. It’s one, it’s having the awareness, the self awareness of what’s going on for you. So understanding what hot buttons are being pushed. So that’s often the conversation that I have with leaders and, and their teams of this is probably bringing something up from a decade ago or two decades ago. And you’re then taking that experience and kind of putting it on this one, which may have no relation whatsoever. But it’s, it’s triggering something internally. So having the self awareness of I don’t address conflict with this individual or I don’t address conflict in this situation or under these circumstances. But I do with this individual, I’m comfortable with this, having that harder conversation in these circumstances. So it’s that that one piece is this awkwardness. And then the other piece is really the skill set. Okay, now I know I’m, I’m in conflict. Or maybe I’m in like, what I kind of call like the misunderstanding, which is a precursor to conflict, having the awareness Oh, I’m here, and then having the skills to do something about it. Right. And so I come in, and help teams in both of those instances. And when I see, you know, obviously, the opposite of constructive, maybe not obvious, the opposite of constructive conflict is destructive, where we’re focusing on the person. Like I said before, like, here comes Scott with this crazy idea. And I don’t want to deal with that. And I’m cleaning up his mess. Or he went awry. And now I have to pick up the pieces behind him. But really having that awareness that it’s going on, and we all move so fast these days. We don’t take a moment to step back and think about I need to have this conversation. I don’t want to, but I need to do it. Yeah. Yeah. So true world. That to answer your question. Yes. In the remote world, ideally speaking, trying to be in person, but like the client I met with yesterday, she has, she lives in Denver, she has team members in Europe and Asia and Africa. And like, it’s just, that’s not going to happen in the moment when it needs to happen. So then being on Zoom, and what I always or, you know, video of some kind, and being able to lay eyes on the person and hopefully being able to notice and pay attention to some body language. You know, maybe they start, like, right now I’m sitting up straight, I’m engaged, but if I noticed someone kind of sitting back and criss crossing their arms, is that a sign of disengagement? And if I noticed that, to stop the conversation and to say, Hey, I noticed that you know, I’ve noticed that If there’s some emotion going on or and you’re not using it, I’m hesitating because you never want to label something. And then someone just becomes defensive. But hey, notice you became quiet. What’s going on here? Tell me the thoughts going through your mind. How was this conversation sitting with you? And I know for a lot of my clients, that feels really awkward. That’s not how they would say it. And let’s find a way that does make it comfortable. Sure. Free. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was sending an email or a text or hold on gosh, I mean, to state the obvious, don’t do it.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. And for anyone who thinks that that will be expedient, I just had to sit through a three hour meeting with a group who sent a series of text messages, and it was a non constructive conflict, leading up to that point, and and it took three hours to resolve it. So yeah, you’re not saving yourself in the long run. That aside, Oh, there’s one other big point. And, you know, this, this, again, kind of brings together a couple of your worlds. How, how do women and men engage in constructive conflict differently? Are there differences? Should there be differences? What’s your insight there?
Julie G. Holunga
Yeah. So you know, I have some research on this, that shows there isn’t much difference. Anecdotally, what I see is that there are some men who are more, you know, want to deal with conflict right away, like address it right when it comes up. And I have some women who do that as well. What I noticed the difference is if there is an only in the room, so if there is one man in the room, or one woman and everyone else is of the opposite gender, then that’s where there can be a difference, because they feel like I’m the only one who’s thinking this way, or I’m the only one who doesn’t want this to escalate. And then we have to have a three hour meeting, because we didn’t address this earlier on. But that’s the difference that I noticed more. And really the the difference that I see. And this comes out of an assessment I use with all of my clients, which is called a merge genetics, which really looks at how people prefer to communicate. And it really helped understand each other to de escalate conflict. And what we measure, we call it assertiveness. But it really measures how people deal with conflict. So at one end of the spectrum there people are like, I see this happening, I’m going to deal with it right now. And because I don’t want it to escalate even more or to become disastrous, or polarizing, and at the other end of the spectrum. So they’re energized by having that conversation and dealing with it. At the other end of the spectrum. I call them our peacekeepers, because they’ll they don’t avoid conflict, which is a huge misconception. But they will do anything in their power to prevent it from happening in the first place. So if they notice that conflict happens when Scott is not involved in the conversation, from the start, they’ll bring Scott into the conversation at the start. And so it’s really helping people to understand what sets them off, and what their natural response to conflict is. And for most people I work with, which just makes sense is like, is this avoidance? I just don’t want to deal with it. But I’m, you know, I wake up at three in the morning and, and ruminate. And think of should have could have, but I’m not I don’t want to deal with it in the moment.
Scott Ritzheimer
Oh, my goodness, we’ve covered a lot of ground. There’s a question though, that I want to ask us all my guests. And it’s this. What is the biggest secret that you wish wasn’t a secret at all? Oh, what’s that one thing that you wish everyone watching? You’re listening today knew?
Julie G. Holunga
Well, you know, I was thinking about that. Because there’s one thing I wish people would know is that leadership is not something that you’re born with. There are people who are more natural leaders, and it comes to them easier, but even they have to work at it. And I look at leadership, it’s truly a conscious thing. And it’s not subconscious, and it can’t be. And so I say like I’m trying to rid the world of lazy leadership, like that’s why, you know, it shouldn’t be a secret that you have to make an effort when you’re dealing with human beings. Yeah, right, that it doesn’t come easily. And it’s not always going to be comfortable. But what I find is that when people who are more deliberate, right, the opposite of lazy, to me, being a deliberate leader is they end up, they’re happier, they’re less stressed, their team is less stressed. They’re more productive, and they’re not dealing with the personnel issues like that three error meaning you describe, they’re just they don’t need to deal with it because they’re de escalating anything to that point.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, yeah, that’s okay. So now, notice as I was browsing your site, that there were a number of resources there and wondering, oh, how can folks find out more about the work you do? And what would be a great next step?
Julie G. Holunga
Sure. So I have the two ideas. If you connect with me on LinkedIn, and I’m sure we can share that in the show notes, I have a monthly newsletter that comes out, that’s a quick read less than five minutes. So it just gives you some ideas of things that you can put it into practice right away, but it gets you thinking, again, that piece of that self awareness and tactics that you can put in to practice right away. And then to visit my website julieholunga.com, I have a bunch of resources on there, including a trust assessment because that is something that as well that I’m really passionate about and did some research on that. And so you can take this assessment and it allows you to see where those gaps and potential blind spots are, within your own leadership and for your team and organization as well.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, fascinating. Had a chance to check it out. Only about five minutes is super, super simple, awesome, awesome results, and I would highly recommend it. So head on over. We’ll put the links both to our LinkedIn profile and her website julieholunga.com Get it right out of the show notes when you’re not driving and and it’s absolutely worth it. You want to head over there so. Well Julie, thanks so much for being on the show. Just an honor and privilege having you here. I absolutely love this conversation. For those of you watching listening you know that your time and attention mean the world to us. I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I know I did, and I cannot wait to see you next time. Take care
Contact Julie G. Holunga
Julie G. Holunga is a Leadership Trainer and Executive Coach. She develops professional service leaders with expertise in the careers of female professionals. Before starting her consulting practice, Julie served as Project Manager for Alumni Career Services at Harvard Business School, focusing on advancing female alumnas’ careers. She worked with Fortune 500 companies to retain and move women into leadership positions. Julie earned her BA at Union College and her MBA at Boston College. She completed coursework in the Neuroscience of Business at Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Want to learn more about Julie Holunga’s work and take her free 5-minute Trust Assessment? Visit https://julieholunga.com/ or follow her on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/julieholunga/
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