In this astute episode, Julian Chapman, President of Forrest & Company Limited, shares how he helps organizations achieve their goals through effective strategy, efficient structures, and sound managerial leadership.
You will discover:
– Why management and leadership need each other
– How is leading managers different from leading other team members
– The simple key to organizational success
Episode Transcript
Scott Ritzheimer
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again to the secrets of the high demand coach podcast. And I am here with I think the new standard for high demand coaches that is the one the only Julian Chapman. And I had to read this a couple of times, because it’s just hard for me to imagine, especially at this stage of my life, but Julian has over 60 years that six zero years of experience engaging teams and organizations and building their leadership capability. He did about 30 years in the business world, he’s done about 30 years in the Canadian Armed Forces as well, where he retired in 2014. With the rank of brigadier general, suffice it to say, Julie knows a thing or two about thoughts about leadership and organizational development and accountability. And his thoughts have been published in the HR reporter magazine, CPA bottom line newspaper, and HR professional magazine. Now, Julian is also the author of his book managerial leadership journey, and unconventional business pursuit, which was published in May 22. And I’m very excited to dive into here today. So Julian, welcome to the show. I’m so glad to have you here. I’d love to before we get into the book, which, from the title alone, and the research I had to do, I’m so excited about it. But before we get there, give us a little bit of color, what did all of those years really do for you create in you that ultimately led you to writing this book?
Julian Chapman
Well, I just said, you know, just a piece here, Scott. A, I really didn’t spend 60 years doing it, because otherwise I’d be Methuselah. So here’s the here’s the issue, my military career was primarily in the cane Army Reserve. So I, as I like to say, I had a foot on the land and, and a foot in the canoe kind of thing. So So in other words, I live both lived simultaneously. So so I was able to do those, you know, to be able to, to have a military career at the same time, as I had a civilian career and make those two lives work. I kind of, you know, had this kind of split my brain in half in order to be able to do that. But, but that was, that was the nature of it. So so from that standpoint, it gave me an opportunity to see how things see the nature of human beings and the nature of human beings in a work setting. And an understanding of that, as well as how do you develop leaders? How do you how do you bring leaders along and and my book is referred to as the managerial leadership journey, because it really is a journey. And the book has as kind of my moments of my journey in this whole process of living these two lives, and how do you intertwine them up here in Canada, we have a very different, we have a very different relationship to our military. So military background eras is not very commonplace. So that’s why it’s kind of an unconventional business pursuit. Because it’s, it’s not the not the norm here. And so when I say it’s very much, very much the case in the US and in other countries, I have that they have that inter relationship between between those two, those two elements. But I think one of the things that, that I learned throughout from both sides, but but really, from the from the military side was that there is a need for a profession of managerial leadership. So in other words, that, that we need to be professional about this. One of the things that I point out, is, is and I and I put this out to to everyone that’s willing to listen, so thanks for listening so that managerial leadership is the one common profession in every single organization on the planet. So in other words, it’s, it’s about, it’s about bringing together the management side and the leadership side, in in one person. So that management of task and that leading of people, but it is the one common thing. It’s the one common rule. Book, we have professions around whether it’s IT, finance, HR, operations, whatever, we have these professions where we don’t have we don’t have a professional perspective on managerial leadership, yet it’s the most common thing in all organizations. So that’s, that’s kind of my argument from the get go. And I learned that from the profession of arms, common profession, you know, throughout NATO, as as one would say that there is a profession of arms and there’s a there’s a brotherhood and sisterhood within that. That that sort of grows up as one as one goes to one’s career.
Scott Ritzheimer
Well, so let’s dive into that then. And you kind of you’ve opened Pandora’s box a little bit for us, but give us give us the your working definition for managerial leaders. Ship, because the vast majority of the time I hear both of those words, you know, anywhere near each other, they’re often contrasted via managers or this leaders or that, you know, and one is usually depending on the perspective of the speaker elevated above the other in terms of importance or grandeur. So, what is managerial leadership?
Julian Chapman
So managerial leadership is that, that function inside an organization where I have to lead people in the delivery of a task, and to be effective as a managerial leader, I have to be able to deliver that task whilst having a positive impact. And so, so managerial leadership is instead of saying that leadership is everything and management’s evil, it’s that the two have to coexist. It’s a yin and a yang, that the two are interrelated. And we have to stop trying to tear them apart. Because you can’t have successful leadership in an organization if you don’t have management, the function of delivering the task, and you can’t be successful in the task, if you don’t have the leadership side. So. So we’ve, we’ve created this dichotomy of tearing these two things apart, and we use the term leadership, it gets bounced around, you know, that, that that team is leading in the, you know, in football, or that’s a that’s a great leader in the music industry, you know, all of these terms, but managerial leadership is what is it that is inside an organization that makes things up. And that managerial leadership is absolutely critical. Now, at certain points in our careers in organizations, we may have to lean more heavily on the task side. In other cases, we may need to lean more heavily on the leadership side, the further up you go. Ironically enough, the more you do actually have to get really good at the management side. In other words, how do I organize the business? How do I clarify the strategy organize the structure, an organized business, it’s not just about great speeches in town halls, that, that motivate the employees, you need to leave the motivation in the employees to their real managers not, you know, not you as the CEO kind of thing. You got to organize that business and make that business work. And you have fewer and fewer people that you can actually influence by your own personal engagement with. And we’ve created this mystique around it.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, so one of the things that that creates, and it’s, it’s almost a whole new skill set, but it’s really hard to put your hands on some times is that it’s different to manage managers than it is to manage other team members. So what are the skills particularly for that CEO, that C suite executive, that senior leader who, who can’t just go directly to where the work is done, but has to lead through others? What are some of the skills that make them effective?
Julian Chapman
Well, I think it starts it starts first and foremost with strategy. And what I mean by strategy, again, is it’s a term that’s tossed around all over the place. And you ask to people, what’s what strategy means? And you get two different definitions of it. So strategy, the strategy I’m talking about is defining what does the organization want to be? What do we want to be when we grow up? You can call it grand strategy, whatever the case may be. But having that clarity in that perspective, because that enables people to understand what are the criteria that they have to use? As they’re doing their work? In order to deliver on the strategy? I’ve got to know what, where we’re trying to go here, rather than strategy, which often you all talk to CEOs all the time, and I’ll say, Oh, we’ve got a strategy. Oh, yeah, we’ve got a strategy, only to find out that they have a plan. But they don’t have an end state, they don’t have that perspective as to what what is this business really about? And, and part of that is, you know, we just kind of get busy. And when we forget about it, so in our work, we help organizations to articulate their strategy, they may have it deep down inside, but they haven’t articulated it, they’re not really clear. And if I’m not clear at the top of the house with where I’m really taking the organization, then how can everybody else get behind it? So that’s, that’s really the key element is is is a gotta have that clarity, and then I have to structure the organization to deliver on that. So it starts with the strategy, then it’s the structure what, how many layers do we have how many you know, what are the different functions and how do they interrelate is so much of the work doesn’t go doesn’t go vertical? In the organization and actually goes horizontally, so you have to be able to do that. And I would say that one of the big things that that CEOs in particular have to get good at is laterally integrating their team, the C suite, before their team goes to vertical execution. In other words, what happens is, if we do not laterally integrate, to don’t get things lined up in the C suite, before they go to vertical execution, you’d get that four letter word that starts with us silo, right? You get that you get those silos, because everybody’s trying to do vertical execution. And, and then if you’ve layered on top of that, that we don’t have clarity what the strategy is, then we’re really going in all sorts of different directions. And so so the first two are the strategy. The second is the structure. The third is managerial leadership behaviors to actually deliver it, the employees can’t do it on their own, they need the help of their management, they need the help the leaders that will lead them through this. And, and that’s why I sort of emphasize that managerial leadership is critical, and we have to get really good at it. Far too often, we get excited by our own personal experience, and, and the foundations of our personal experiences, which are, you know, whether it’s finance it or whatever the case may be. And we forget that, actually, we’re supposed to be leading people through this, and that that’s where our energy has to be. So you know, so I don’t close the door and close everybody out, and focus on my spreadsheet. So those are kind of the three things that that CEOs have to focus on.
Scott Ritzheimer
And, and where did where did they learn these skills? Right? Where do you go to find the let’s see, you’re sitting there, you’re thinking, hey, I need help learning to lead the spokes learning to get my team divert to laterally integrate? Sorry, where do folks find that skill set?
Julian Chapman
Well, I mean, part of it is, you know, this, this is a bit of a cop out, Scott, but I’m gonna say that, we also we have to learn by our experiences, we have to learn by our journey, we need to reflect on what we’ve done, those sorts of things. So So I would say that, rather than getting straight into, you know, you can read up on that, you know, take a course, get an executive coach, you know, all of those, all of those traditional ways, part of it is is to, to really sit back and, and think about how this has gone, what did I learn as I went through this, one of the key things in, in organizations and, and I would say one of the key challenges for, for the world writ large, is the issue of accountability. Now, again, I have a different definition of accountability. And, and we distinguish accountability from responsibility. And that’s, that’s problematic, because you go to the Oxford English Dictionary, and you look up accountability, it says, See responsibility, and you look up responsibilities, see accountability, that doesn’t help you. And if you if you’ve got any project management background, you know, RACI models and things like that. And so they kind of get all mucked about, but understanding the nature of accountability, which is I give someone on accountability. So as a as managerial leader, I engage with my direct reports, and I say, This is what I need you to deliver on, can you do it at this time in a to this standard, at cetera, and that they give the thumbs up, then that’s their accountability. Whereas responsibility is my personal feeling of obligation. It comes from inside of me, and an understanding that everyone has a different sense of responsibility. We are all different. We’re all diverse human beings, we all have different senses of responsibility. So accountability becomes critical to define what are the expectations, and then to actually hold someone to account. Unfortunately, that’s where things start to fall apart. Sometimes we’ll tell them what we expect them to do. But the other part is holding them to account instead of relying on their sense of responsibility, as they’ll go in different directions. Now, there’s one role in the organization that struggles the most on this and really asked to rely on their sense of responsibility. And that’s the chief executive. Because they don’t necessarily have the borders breathing down their neck, or the owners who are breathing down their neck, they may to hold them accountable. They have to they have to drive internally in themselves and say This is where I’m taking. And organizations fail miserably on this accountability piece. And that’s part of the structure. What are these individuals accountable for, and as a sidebar to accountability is you need to give people authority. In other words, what you’re doing is you’re giving them clarity of expectation, you’re giving them clarity of authority, of what authority do they have, because if I’m going to hold you to account, it’s fundamentally unfair if I don’t give you authority, by the same token, and responsibility based organizations where we’re all driving from our own sense of personal obligation. We’re probably seizing authority without any accountability, which is a dangerous. So this is all tied into it.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. Yeah, there’s so much there’s so much in there. i There’s another question that I want to ask, though. And I don’t remember where I saw it. But I heard you talk about an enlightened leader, what is an enlightened leader?
Julian Chapman
Well, the term I use for enlightened leader and part of it came out of came out of COVID. And it’s an it’s an important part of as we live in the era of hybrid at any rate, in this and you know, the the world as it as it sort of sets itself sets itself up again, after, after the effects of pandemic. So enlightened leadership is made up of three elements. And, and I bundled these three elements. So it’s about being authentic servant, and transformation. That’s the on the leadership side. So an enlightened leader is authentic. In other words, they have a iden sense of self awareness, they’re able to bring their true self to the organization, that are servant in that they’re caring for their people, because they realize that it’s through that care of their people that they enable, they’re enabled to deliver what they need to deliver. And at the same time, being transformational, taking the organization into a different round being the change agent. Now, there’s an interesting element to this, because there’s a tension there. So if I’m over on an extreme of authentic, and I’m extremely, you know, it’s all about me, that starts to impact servant, if I’m too much over onto servant and not delivering the goods, that’s problematic. And if I’m too much of a transformational leader, I can end up creating change for the sake of change, and people get overwhelmed by it. So so it’s, it’s about a careful balancing act. And that’s the nature of enlightened leaders.
Scott Ritzheimer
So good, so good. So there’s a question I like to ask all my guests. And it is this what is the biggest secret you wish wasn’t a secret at all? Well, what’s that one thing you wish everybody watching you’re listening today knew?
Julian Chapman
I the first part of obviously, the nature of the profession of managerial leadership, but that the key to organizational success is the management of managers and the leading of leaders. So in other words, it’s we all have books, and all of the documents, and I’ve got tons of these books in my office here. And they’re all about getting up leading your team, getting out and leading individuals. And that that game is very different when you’re managing managers. And and what do you have to do and what do you have to look for and all of these sorts of things, it is kind of self evident, but but we just we don’t spend the time or the energy. And that’s where organizations fail, whether or not for profits for profit, whatever industry whenever public sector, private sector, that’s where it fails, is in how we lead our leaders and how we manage our managers.
Scott Ritzheimer
Excellent. Well, I know folks are gonna want to know more. So tell us two things. Where can folks get a copy of your book? Give us the title of it again, where they can find it and where can they find more out about your company?
Julian Chapman
So the the book’s available on on all the all the the sites, whether it’s Amazon or Barnes and Noble, or you name it, and it’s the managerial leadership journey and unconventional business pursuit. If you Google managerial leadership journey, you’ll you’ll be able to find it and you can easily find me as well just by Googling Julian Chapman but you can find us at forrestandco.com, which is which is our company, which is all about managerial leadership and, and helping to create great places to work that deliver the strategy.
Scott Ritzheimer
Right, well, Julian, thank you so much for being on the show what an honor and privilege to have you here and for those of you watching and listening today you know your time and attention means the world to us I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I know I did and I cannot wait to see you next time take care.
Contact Julian Chapman
Julian Chapman has over three decades of experience engaging teams and organizations in building their leadership capability. His leadership knowledge is augmented by his 30+ year “second” career as a member of the Canadian Armed Forces, from which he retired in 2014 with the rank of Brigadier-General. He joined Forrest & Company in 2002 and became president in 2015. His thoughts on leadership, organizational development, and accountability have been published in HR Reporter Magazine, CPA Bottom Line Newspaper, and HR Professional magazine. Julian is the author of The Managerial Leadership Journey: An Unconventional Business Pursuit, published in May 2022.
Want to learn more about Julian Chapman’s work at Forrest & Company Limited? Check out his website at https://www.forrestandco.com/
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