In this exceptionally encouraging episode, Marc Pitman, Founder of the Concord Leadership Group, shares how he helps his clients mine for their brilliance within.
Scott Ritzheimer
Hello, hello and welcome welcome once again to the secrets of the high demand coach and I am here with to my delight with yet another high demand coach. And that’s a new friend of mine I mutual acquaintance put us together. But today I’m honored to have the presence of Mr. Mark a Pittman himself. Mark is the founder of the Concord leadership group. He helps leaders lead their teams with more effectiveness and less stress, whether it’s through one on one coaching of executives conducting high engagement trainings or growing leaders through his ICF accredited coach certification program. His clients grow in stability, and effectiveness. I love that both and he is the author of The surprising gift of doubt, amazing title, by the way, and that is the use, use certainty to become an exceptional leader you are meant to be. He’s also author of ask without fear, which has been translated amazingly to Dutch, Polish, Spanish and Mandarin. I’m assuming you did all the translation work. Is that right? Google Translate. Yeah, so he’s here with us today, you guys are in for an absolute treat. I’m so glad that you’re here. Mark. Thanks for joining us. I’d love to start off and just hear a little bit about your story. How did you get into coaching and why?
Marc Pitman
Well, you know, you know how some people play doctor and lawyer, your fireman when they’re kids. I played coach, I just wanted to be a life coach. And no, I knew that wasn’t sure. I was saying that to somebody just last week, and they’re like, you did? Not at all. You know, my parents were into self help and self improvement. They found it when I was in my teenage years. And so they started assigning me homework. I had to go to grad school homework. And then I also had Pitman family homework. So I had positive mental attitude books to read and motivational speakers to listen to. We had to read books and listen to tapes. There’s tapes in the day. And then they get into the kind of get into the swing of coaching. And I’m not sure who introduced them to it. But I know when my wife and I were engaged, they got us Zig Ziglar success coaches said you don’t just need the premarital counseling, you need six months to Zig Ziglar success coaches watching. So each of us we had six months one on one, my wife kind of learned a bit like What’s this weird Pippin vocabulary? And I got to think about my life as a senior in college beyond the wedding day, like decades, what is it that I really want to be about? What do I want to just? How do I want to direct my life? What do I want to be the corner, the cornerstones of it going to work, I started doing admissions at a college and then went into development found out I love asking people for money, it is so much fun to do. And in my professional work, that was the coaches, the people that did life coaches, for the most part at that point in the late 90s. That helped me be a better me. The consultants seem to have I’ve met other consultants since then. And I had good consultants at the time, but their model seemed to be about holding on to the information and protecting me from it so that they could renew the contract, as opposed to helping me grow as an individual and make the connections on my own. So I found that as I grew in my own ability to be a better me, I was a much better fundraiser and much better manager, much better volunteer person, alumni, Director, dorm parent, whatever the different roles I was having. So in 2003, I had the opportunity to go and go to Franklin Covey, be certified as a coach, and hang up my shingle. And it’s been over 20 years now of about 20 years of doing that work, and various iterations, different, you know, looking different ways at different times. But it’s been I love, I love the in fact, just starting having just started certifying coaches, it’s the, it’s a whole way of looking at life, like people are actually brilliant, and they know a lot more than what, what they think they do. And so we get to hold the space for people to have that safe space of not having to, we’re not going to hire you, we’re not going to fire you where we get to draw out the brilliance and there are times when you need to consult in their times when you need a trainer or a mentor. Definitely times for therapy and counseling and all that. Those aren’t coaching but it’s so cool to all my training and speaking around the world is then from a coaching mindset of my audience is totally brilliant. And they just need to connect some of the dots and in or maybe look at something in a slightly different way or have a powerful question.
Scott Ritzheimer
It’s such a brilliant worldview because I think a lot of times when people will kind of and even saying it this way speaks to the mindset they finally admit they need a coach. Yeah, like it’s like I’ve done everything else. You know, my coaching thing is like loving the Oh, we’ve we’ve tried your plans A through Z, Z Z A C, I’ve been a total failure of maybe I’ll try a coach now. But the real idea of it is, you don’t have to wait to be a failure to be a coach, right? You don’t have to go out and find some coach who’s going to be this whiz bang, like, we’re gonna give you all this kind of a thing. I love the way that you said it, and I butcher it to try and repeat it. But the brilliance inside, right? If you’re brilliant, you need a coach, right? It’s not that if you failed, you need a coach. It’s not remedial. And sometimes that’s the case.
Marc Pitman
But yeah, go no have been hired that way. So one of my one of my remedial people that HR hired, you know, an HR calls you, it’s not going to be like the High Achiever are looking to be better. But that person is still at that place that was over a decade ago, and is now running the entire department, the large sector, large department in that organization. And to your point, I think a lot of us think that coaching is that remedial thing, it’s that last ditch effort. But if we just shift the focus, and at the time of this recording, Serena Williams just had her last time at the open for now. And it’s there are athletes like of her caliber, that have coaches for different aspects of their play, not just overall. So we know in the athletic world, that there are specialized coaches for the super achievers. But somehow we’ve we well, one of the problems I think I’ve I’ve seen in clients and in myself is that we feel like there must be a book we must they’re not a book, but we must, if we don’t get it, if we don’t understand how to lead, it must be a problem with us, as opposed to so reaching out for help is is the is like a failure. We’re not supposed to be reaching out for help we, we were promoted to a position so we should already have what it takes to do that. Yeah, that position.
Scott Ritzheimer
And I think that’s particularly true from many of the people who would benefit from my coach the most right? founders, entrepreneurs, business leaders, right, people who are in a position to have exponential impact based on their behaviors, actions, right? mindsets. The the, the more successful you’ve been in the past, the more you can benefit from a coach, I would argue,
Marc Pitman
Absolutely, I totally agree. And I think it’s one of the hardest though, is when you’re that entrepreneur, you’re holding together a team or you’re a solopreneur, trying to not trying but actually effectively marking it all, you forget that that that kind of shield you put up around yourself or that image of who you are, can become a prison that traps you the armor that protects you can also constrict your growth. And having a coach can help you to readjust the armor. Without, you know, without feeling like the guy in the Wizard of Oz, don’t look at the man behind the curtain, you know, you can still be the great and terrible and wonderful eyes. And the even greater at that and benefit from a coach.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. So So I love this. And so coming from this point of kind of mining for brilliance, right, of extracting it out and helping, you know, reveal it to the world. What would you say some of the most important work that you find yourself doing even on a daily basis with your clients.
Marc Pitman
Part of it is is unlearning what brought them into leadership so often as an employee, individual contributor, having solutions, doing work, getting tasks done. That’s how we measure success and get promoted. Then there’s a whole different mindset that has to happen when we’re leading the work. Sometimes we have to be doing, there’s stuff we have to be doing. But we don’t have to be doing all of it. Because when we start doing it, and we have a team, we’re start we become a micromanager because they’re actually hired to do it. And we think we’re being helpful because that’s how we’ve been rewarded all the way through our career. But but we’re really telling our team, we don’t trust you, or we don’t have what it takes or. And so that’s why one of the things they do is unlearning. The other thing is so much of our leader, I’ve got my Master’s in organizational leadership. And I’m a nerd. So I love studying. So much of our leadership structures, especially in the West, and especially the United States are built based on a white male being a leader with centuries of systems that are supporting that that structure. So it’s also unlearning the toxicity that’s there for for all all genders and races, but to also really have the courage to piece together your own leadership style. And that feels incredibly risky. But the the the enthusiasm and effectiveness and energy that’s released as people realize, I get to do that. Yeah, I get to do it that I get passionate about doing things this way. And so then once you as you know, the brilliance of coaching is that it’s time release. It’s not like you go to a seminar and you get Firehose for two and a half days, which is can be very beneficial. But you get to beta test things and try it out and see how does it fit and how do you get to really put on your own leadership suit as opposed to just buying something off the rack?
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, that’s so good. One of the questions that I’ve really been mulling over lately, because in our work we do a lot with the different stages that organizations go through. And similar way we do a lot with the stages that leaders go through. Right. And the big question, the big challenge that I think most leaders have is the accumulation of knowledge. Yeah, what did you learn when you were first starting out? And is it still serving you today?
Marc Pitman
What a powerful question.
Scott Ritzheimer
Because some of it is right, like some of those lessons are are why you got to where you are. And they’re equally valid today. But a lot of them aren’t like you’re saying, you know, if you learn how to execute well and get stuff done, how is that serving you and your team today? And I know without a coach, it’s very, very difficult to stop and ask that question. Yeah, it’s very difficult to recognize the win of the equation, right? It’s just an issue of like, well, if that works, then it’ll work. And I’ll do more of it. It’ll work more. And then, you know, rinse and repeat, we do the same thing. And so I love this idea that you’re bringing out of it, like, you know what you did, then. And what you do now aren’t necessarily the same thing.
Marc Pitman
It’s such a stages, it’s also generations. So I’m a Gen X, or I grew up in a time when the jobs are tight, and the boomers are overpowering us population wise, and millennials are coming in. And so they’re we get dumped on a lot is the slackers and all this other stuff, I am now seeing the actors who are the ones that raised. So it was always by the people that raised the kids that are going into the workforce that they’re complaining about it. It’s like, it’s your parenting that led to this, this culture. So what I’m I’m also seeing is that most of the Xers are now doing that to Z’s and whatever else is, after that the A’s or alphas it’s interesting to me that it’s not just generations, it’s it stage of life. So well, we had to do this, when we’re in our career, we had to put in our time, we had to do our things. And it’s not ever stepping back and reflecting, is that helpful? Or is there anything wrong with the way that other people are trying to do it? Now? Maybe if it’s the same goal, there’s multiple ways to get there? You’re in coaching does provide that, that place to stop and pause? And to, to have that kind of okay, my my employees keep pushing for this. I don’t understand it at all. Well, does it affect your bottom line in a negative way? Does it impact your customers experience? Well, no. Okay, so why not try it? And see, yeah, and tell them it’s a beta test. So that’s not like the new, the new thing that’s going to be forever. But yeah.
Scott Ritzheimer
We had a policy, if you can call it that at the company that I ran it, we could try anything for 30 days. Or you can try and you can try anything for 30 days, right? If it if it does justice to your colleagues and to your your clients, you can try anything for 30 days, right? It may work, it may not work. But let’s try it. We don’t know until we do. And I love that. Another thing that’s fascinating, and I’d love to see you expound on this is the exact mirror opposite of what we just talked about of taking lessons that we learned early on, and applying them later. What I think I hear you saying is that we’re taking lessons we learned later, and applying them earlier. Does that make sense? So yeah, Gen X, you know, I’m looking at say, Hey, this is what I need to do to succeed. Now. That’s what you should do as well. Right? I think it’s a fascinating thing, because you ask people, What do you wish you knew? Now? What do you wish you knew, you knew then what you know, now, right? And those answers to me, are almost always unsatisfactory. It’s almost always an edited version of the lesson they’re learning right now, that’s most applicable to the stage of life work career that they’re in right now. And it’s not necessarily the most essential thing back then.
What would be a good example of that, that I’m resonating with this.
So folks will kind of go through this progression of you know, in your early in your career, you do whatever is given to you, you know, and you just hustle and make it happen and then those who are successful reach a point where they get to decide they can do whatever they want to do right. The question that I have is do you get to make that decision before you’ve done the hard work of of earning it?
Marc Pitman
That was exactly what I was thinking as the example was just yeah, the do your passion do just don’t lead to the things that you love? Well, no, life has a lot of stuff that just thinks it’s not fun to do. For a lot of us it’s not fun to do the books. But if you’re a solopreneur you’re gonna get in a lot of trouble if you don’t do the books and sure you can get help with that. Yeah, but yeah, that’s that’s leaders to there’s sales. A lot of leaders don’t like sales, which is are just mind boggling to me. I think that’s, there are parts of the process that aren’t fine. But there’s, it’s a quantifiable game. You can see if you’re putting points on the board. But you know, there’s that there are so many industries right now we’re going through another wave of basic things like it’s the customers that have the problem. They should just come to my store. I shouldn’t have to commute learn to communicate with them. They should just get how great We are in the services we have. And it’s no it’s we always have to earn that we always have to learn and and the conversations change. And so we have to have that flexibility of continuing to keep in touch with our prospects to learn. Yeah. How are they? How are they describing what we’re doing?
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. That’s so good. So good. All right. So this is a moment I’ve been waiting for our conversation has led up to this point. And I’m so excited about it. But the question I love to ask books, because we get to have these just brilliant guests like you on the show. And one of the things that I’ve found is, each one of them has their secret, right? The one secret that they wish wasn’t a secret the thing that they wish everyone listening knew, but so few people know. And I’d love to know from you, what’s that biggest secret that you wish everybody listening knew today?
Marc Pitman
One that’s coming to mind right now, and that I I’ve 20 years of working with with CEOs and founders and entrepreneurs is that there isn’t a roadmap. We are all making it up as we go along. And that’s, that’s okay. It’s not it’s not a settle for it’s not. What I see a lot of people have is that they don’t share their uncertainty with people, they don’t share their doubt, because it’s not safe to all the time. But they then interpret everybody else is not sharing it, as though they don’t have it like there must be confident those leaders are strong and confident and forthright. And so when they go into something like strategic planning, they’re looking for a Mapquest to date myself, or Google Maps, like with all the turns all the way mapped out for the next three to five years. And that doesn’t exist. And we’re coming out of a time where it was clear for the globe, like a global pandemic that shuts us down wasn’t something that most people had game plans for. And so I think, knowing that, you’re making it up as you go along, I called my dad a few years back, we are we just took our oldest or youngest to college. So we’re in a dear entering a different stage. But I called my dad and I said, you were just making it up as you went along, weren’t you into their silence, and he just started busting up laughing. I thought he had a plan. I thought he knew what he was doing. I thought he had the answers, I didn’t realize he was just making the best choices at the right moment. So for me, it would be knowing what your core values are and what your organization’s core values are. Because that allows you to pivot in the moment of, do you err on the side of your people? Or do you’re on the side of the customer? Or do you err on the side of taking a risk or deer on the side of playing it safe? Those things aren’t necessarily good or bad. We may have internal things that we think are good or bad, but knowing them explicitly and let you know, in the moment, when I’m faced with the decision. How am I going to lean? Which way am I going to bob and weave and you’ll be doing it for the right reasons? Yeah. And that’s where that so can I go one more? step further? Yeah. Okay. So the the reason I think it’s this doubt can be a surprising gift is that as we continue focusing on the externals, which is all good, the books, the tapes, the videos, the trainings and conferences and certifications, the degrees? They don’t quite always fit. We can get parts of them, but none of them are 100%. wallow, this is it. And it’s in part. So that doubt can lead us to think of, well, we’re always deficient, we’re always lacking. Why am I so bad? Why can I not even get this straight? If but that doubt can also lead us to ask the question. What if I’m exactly the right person to lead this team? Or what if my organization is exactly the right voice in the sector? Then we start interpreting things differently. Like, I only get 10% Glean 10% from these things, but I’m gleaning 10%. Yeah, oh, my goodness, these little tweaks are making me so much more effective. You start to be having your confidence grow, because you realize I am getting stuff out of this. May not be doing it hook line and sinker. But I am better for this. And our approach is uniquely different. Or or, and we know why. It’s not just because we don’t do those things. We don’t do sales, because people should just come to us. That’s crazy. But we know why we do sales, maybe differently, maybe more relationally than hustle culture or something.
Scott Ritzheimer
I think that’s good. I think there’s there’s this idea that books must be like rule books. You know, if it’s an if if you know, Jim Collins wrote it, then it must be you know, or Patrick L. Or this, you know, guy with this acronym after his name, wrote it, it must be true.
Marc Pitman
The endorsements on the back of it. Yeah. And even amazing, too, because, yeah, like change their lives. So it must be true.
Scott Ritzheimer
And yeah. And a couple of times, I’ve met authors, and you look, it’s like, you don’t even do this. What what’s happening here? And I think there’s a couple of things that are useful in this space, because I think it’s one of the biggest problems that that curious leaders face today is there’s too much advice available. But we don’t have the right filters for how to recognize what is challenging because it’s what I need to change and what’s challenging because it’s not right for me.
Marc Pitman
Oh, my goodness, that’s brilliant. Yeah, that’s and that’s where my coaching, I call it quadrant three, which is the fourth third stage and the growth model of where you start piecing together the stuff, it’s filtering. Why is this not right for me, but that’s it. It’s the filters. Yeah, figure out, oh, management by by walking around isn’t for me because I’m an introvert. And that actually drains me. So I will do other things, I want the same goal of connection with my team. But there are going to be other ways I will do it than my predecessor, or I’m a verbal expressive, and that’s not necessarily beneficial for the team, because they don’t know when I’ve come to a decision. So maybe I should find somebody else I can verbally express with, so that I can save my team, all the chaos of all my ideas. They have to execute on all of them. That’s interesting.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, I think the two big filters are our time, right stage of your career stage of your life stage of your business. I think that’s the first one is this written for folks that are in the stage that you’re in or trying to get to? And the second big one is the one that you just drew out, which is, is this written for the people who are like you, right? Is this lit written for your leadership style for your personality style, because if it’s written for a hard charging Bulldog extrovert, and you’re a raging, you know, introvert, you can do that stuff, but you’re going to end the day exhausted? Yeah. And will it work, you know, your guess is as good as mine, you know, now, if you’re an extrovert, and that like just lights your fire and you can go and it’s just like you fit then then it’s wonderful. And so that’s why one person can read a book and it’d be brilliant for them. Next person can read a book, and it can be crashing, as because we don’t have the right filters in place
Marc Pitman
Well, and so because of that awareness, with surprising gifted doubt, I was able to actually, I paid or offered to paid a dozen people from different lived experiences, different backgrounds, different orientations, to review the book to see as if it were as open to His diverse audiences, I felt, and there were some really good feedback on that. Mostly, it was the pop culture references that were just limiting because of me because of who I am and what I wanted when I grew up. But it was really good to have the the kind of those, my filter, I was aware of my filter. And so the first chapter is something on on that, but to have the input of others to come around so that it could help uninhinder that from other people. I don’t even know if that’s word. But that’s yeah, it is.
Scott Ritzheimer
Now it’s in the official canon.
Marc Pitman
One of my great one of my advisors told me early on, eat the chicken spit out the bones. Yeah, just about anything. There’s some chicken in there. And if you’re vegan, come up with a better analogy. Sorry about that about the chicken. But eat the chicken spit out the bones has been something that’s been really helpful for me, because I don’t get upset that there are bones. It’s just bones. Like it’s not a failing a more Oh, no, my dinner has bones in it. You know? Yes. It’s just, it’s just what they are. So I’d love the non judgmental feeling of that and the freedom of Okay, that wasn’t for me.
Scott Ritzheimer
I’m totally stuck on trying to make some edamame allegory work.
Marc PitmanThe first time I met edamame or had it, I didn’t know what it was. So I was eating out of this bowl. And it didn’t taste that good. It was kind of fuzzy at all. And it was, yeah, it was my neck. The person next to me is covering of it. Because she had discarded it in the bowl. It was like, great.
Scott Ritzheimer
That’s funny. That’s funny.
Marc Pitman
I learned quickly what not to do.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yes, yes, yes. All right. So final question that I have for you here. And then we’ll talk about how folks can get your book and find out more about what you do. But what I’d like for you to just go and take your coach hat off for a moment and kind of jump into the arena with us put your CEO hat on and talk to us a little bit more about how you’re growing your business and yourself as a leader.
Marc Pitman
Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, this is i It’s an interesting time that you’re asking me because I feel like my business is a Hogwarts staircase that just turned to a new balcony is anchored there. So and this is total stage of life, but after 20 years of coaching, and speaking around the world and writing books, I’ll keep doing that. But the coach certification that I’ve got going is it is as you know, so rewarding to be able to pour yourself into other people that are making a difference in the world. Yeah, there’s a one on one coaching that is I still love but having the leadership coach certification where people are coming either at the leading a career leading and they just don’t know how to do coaching skills, like the coaching skills and the questions that are needed instead of just giving answers as a because most of us don’t have the same leadership development that may have existed in our prior time. So the internal people but also the external people that are trying to either add coaching as a revenue stream to their consulting or to become coaches. It’s so exciting to see people just take off and to see consultants that were like, I want to be better with my team. Then realize, Wait, I could also get paid to do It is myself. So I think where I am seeing my business go is a new way of pouring into other people. And I can see it in stages in a way that I haven’t been able to see it. Most of the time. It’s just kind of just trying to get the next thing done. But right now I feel like I can see the next decade of growth ahead of me and it’s, it’s pretty exciting.
Scott Ritzheimer
That’s fantastic. Excellent. So give us in 30-60 seconds, the elevator pitch for your book. I’d love for people to know a little bit about that, and then tell us where we can find it.
Marc Pitman
Okay, surprising gift of doubt. I firmly believe that. While most of our society is gearing us to ask the question of what’s what’s missing in us, the doubt can build up and build push us into the wire. Why are we the right person for this position? Why might we be the perfect person to your doubt can mean you’re on the verge of greatness. It’s available wherever good books are sold, even fine books are sold. And Amazon being the big grill on the marketplace, but I would recommend going to an independent bookseller if you can find that or your library. I’m trying to make it really accessible there too. That’s great. The audible is out as well. My youngest get to do the about the author part. So we have voice talent from two Pitman’s in the family.
Scott Ritzheimer
That’s excellent. Your doubt means you’re on the verge of would you say verge of excellence or verge of bravery, greatness verge of greatness. I love that your doubt is an indication at the verge of greatness. Well, Mark, thank you so much for being here. I deeply appreciate you spending your time with us I know is massively informative and inspirational for me and I think it was for our audience as well. So thank you so much.
Marc Pitman
Thanks for inviting me. This has been great.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, awesome. And for everyone who is listening your time and attention mean the absolute world toasted the biggest honor you can give. So thank you so much for being here with us for lending your ear or watching with us online. We’re so glad you’re here and we can’t wait to see you next time. Take care
Contact Marc Pitman
Concord Leadership Group founder Marc A. Pitman, CSP® helps leaders lead their teams with more effectiveness and less stress. Whether it’s through one-on-one coaching of executives, conducting high-engagement trainings, or growing leaders through his ICF-accredited coach certification program, his clients grow in stability and effectiveness. He is the author of The Surprising Gift of Doubt: Use Uncertainty to Become the Exceptional Leader You Are Meant to Be. He’s also the author of Ask Without Fear!® – which has been translated into Dutch, Polish, Spanish, and Mandarin.
Want to learn more about Marc’s work at Concord Leadership Group? Check out his website at https://concordleadershipgroup.com.
You can also grab a copy of his book The Surprising Gift of Doubt: Use Uncertainty to Become the Exceptional Leader You Are Meant to Be wherever you buy great books!