In this clarifying episode, Doris Jackson-Shazier, Owner of Shazier Coaching & Consulting, shares how she helps her clients figure out if they need coaching, consulting, or even both. If you’ve ever wondered what the difference is, or if you have a challenge that you’d like to overcome but don’t quite know who can help best, then check out this great episode.
You will discover:
– Why many founders would benefit from both
– The most important distinctions between coaching, consulting, and counseling
– What challenges you can solve through coaching vs consulting
Episode Transcript
Scott Ritzheimer
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again to the secrets of the high demand coach podcast. And here with us today is yet another unbelievably high demand coach in the one and only Doris Jackson-Shazier. She is a seasoned author, speaker, ICF, accredited leadership coach and management consultant with over 20 years of experience driving organizational growth and excellence. She’s renowned for her genuine and cooperative leadership style. And Doris plays multiple roles, including Leader, mentor, facilitator, wife and mother of four. She’s deeply passionate about empowering relationships, both at home and at work, and specializes in teaching leaders how to create high accountability and high morale environments, which is very, very cool. Doris, so excited to have you here. One of the things that struck me as I was doing some research for this episode about you and your firm is that you guys offer both coaching and consulting. Now I know that I’ve been guilty of kind of conflating those two words, and there’s a lot of confusion out there. There’s lots of different definitions for what is coaching, what is consulting. So wondering if we could just kind of dive into that, unpack that a little bit. And so my first question would be, what is the difference between coaching and consulting?
Doris Jackson-Shazier
Well, first, thank you so much for asking. And Scott, thank you for the opportunity to be here today. I really, really appreciate it. So I’m going to add a third element into that, because one of the things we work at, especially as an ICF accredited coach, as a part of our ethics, is that we consistently define the difference between coaching, consulting and counseling, because sometimes that kind of comes into the mix also, especially when you have a really strong connection in that coaching relationship. And so how I would, how I typically differentiate it is, you know, counseling is about past trauma, is childhood things, is uprooting some level of trauma, a counselor therapist is going to be the best fit for that. There’s often times that I have clients where somewhere in there, I may have to say, hey, look, the best way that we can continue our coaching relationship is to pair this with counseling. Because some of the things that are coming up, we’ll be we could do, we’ll get a lot further. If you I was paired your coaching sessions were paired with counseling, all right, yes. So then that’s counseling, and then we go into coaching. And coaching is more like a partnership or accountability partner, but someone who helps you to enhance your leadership skills, gain self awareness. There’s a belief system that you may have the answers, but there’s some type of limited belief or barriers there that’s preventing you from maybe doing what you really want to do deep down, inside, or maybe it’s a little bit fuzzy, you need more clarity on how to articulate or how to see through those things that you really want to do. And so a coach helps to extract that those feelings or that performance for you. And then there’s consulting. And so when I consult, I’m coming in as an expert in in the situation. So what you’re doing is you’re looking for me to give you the answers, whereas as a coach, I’m looking for you to identify those answers and help you to get where you really want to go when you partner with me as a consultant, I’m working from the position of expert, and so now I’m helping to solve those issues for you. There may be some can do services that I’m offering where I’m going to get that done for you, but you’re really leaning into my experience, my expertise and my specialization in order to help resolve whatever you may be experiencing. Wow. That kind of sums up the difference between the two.
Scott Ritzheimer
So good, so good, so clear. So let’s, let’s take that a step further, and we’ve kind of got the different ones. We’re going to zoom in on coaching consulting. Here in particular, it’s the world that you and I are both from. What types of problems are best overcome through coaching?
Doris Jackson-Shazier
So I would say internal. So think of the things that it’s your mindset or your belief system that really is causing the issue. Because with coaching, we’re focused on clarity and direction. We’re focusing on how to set accountability, and it’s a lot of self reflection or how or the role that you play in fixing the situation right. And so think of maybe, if you people don’t like to admit this, but micromanagement, if you are a micro manager, man, coaching would do? Do you such a great service? And how do you increase trust and learn how to delegate so that you can be your best soul? So that’s one example.
Scott Ritzheimer
That’s excellent. Want to pull a little bit from your book is phenomenal. Book. Really enjoyed it. There was one little thing that I think a lot of folks could gloss over, but I’ll tie it all together here in a second. So this is back 2021 if I remember correctly, I had a fight with COVID, and you’re kind of writing about the the aftermath of that. And so this is what the book has. It says I returned to work after the incident, very different. In the quietness of my recovery, I learned the difference between who I am and what I do that is so profound. It’s such a big deal and Doris, I’ve worked with 1000s of different founders, and what continues to amaze me is how personal the journey is. So I think coaching is such a big deal, particularly for founders entrepreneurs, because it’s not just a business thing. It doesn’t happen outside of you. And this, this question that you have here is oftentimes the impetus for someone to start their journey. But it doesn’t stop there. I was just speaking at an event. There were several founders in there multiple businesses, you know, and we started talking about this question, Who am I? And they just came undone. And so I love that you brought that out. What does coaching look like when you’re wrestling with questions like those?
Doris Jackson-Shazier
I think one of the ways that I really help my clients to identify the difference in you know, what they do and who they are in the simplest form is we identify with titles, and I have them to think about the titles that one may take away from them and the titles that can never be removed. And so if you want to move closer to who you are, who you are, the titles that no one can take from you. I came to the realization, again in that quietness, that Senior Director of Field leadership development, which was the position I held at the time, wasn’t going to be on my obituary. It wasn’t necessarily how I wanted to be remembered. It wasn’t who I was, it just was what I did for a living, but who I am is a mom. Because no matter the circumstances that can’t be taken away from me or no one owns that title, who I am as a wife, again, I have ownership over that. And even if my status change, I was a wife, and that title cannot be taken away from me. And so that’s the quickest way that I help people to identify who they are versus what they do. I happen to start thinking about the things that circumstances wouldn’t necessarily change, yeah, and then they’re able to connect a little bit more to, okay, this is who I am, and then that is just actually something that I do.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yes, so good, so good. I absolutely love that point.
Doris Jackson-Shazier
If I could give you a little bit more of a tidbit on that. Yeah, my upcoming book is called pieces to peace, overcoming corporate and COVID, and I dive right into that very little snippet that you picked out is I consider that moment to be the interruption of everything, and so I take a deeper dive into my COVID experience, of being hospitalized for a week and three months of oxygen treatment, and then how, and just everything that happened that led to me becoming a full time entrepreneur. So I just want to put that out there that there’s a whole story just based off of that snippet, and I’m happy that you caught it.
Scott Ritzheimer
That’s amazing, amazing. So let’s, let’s shift gears a little bit. Let’s talk consulting, and then we’re going to tie these back together. But what types of challenges are best overcome by consulting as opposed to coaching?
Doris Jackson-Shazier
So with my specialty that management consulting is really helping people with the organizational piece, and so they are experiencing high turnover, or, you know, high turnover, low retention, whichever way you want to, you know, use it. Or they’re dealing with a team that the leader is frustrated because they feel no one listens to them, or they can’t hold on to people. Or inefficiencies in the business, this is where I’m able to come in, I’m able to observe the business and really get a full snapshot of where there may be gaps in the operations, and then now I can apply expertise or my experiences to how to lead and coach through that situation. Consulting is also good when you need systems and processes in place. And so maybe you have been running this business and it’s been going great, but now that you’re scaling, or there’s growth happening now you need a little bit more systems and processes in place in order to maintain, you know, operational excellence, and this is where consultants going to be key.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, do you find that it’s general, that you need one earlier than the other, or that they happen in a specific order, or is it just kind of whatever you need right now?
Doris Jackson-Shazier
What I’ve been finding especially with small business owners, because I consult a lot for you know, executives and leaders in corporate America, but really, a good amount of my clients are small business owners. I find that they need a combination of both, and I have to explain to them why they need both. They think, oh, I hired you as a consultant, and so now you should come in and be able to fix everything. And oftentimes they’re a part of the problem. And so they have invested a lot in their particular expertise, but they’ve never invested in leadership development, right? They thought, because I’m the boss, then I am. Leader, okay, well, what have you done to educate yourself on how to properly lead people? So I found that perhaps leadership coaching would come first, and then they’re able to do some good things. You know, as far as they may not need consulting later on, but really, most of the individuals I run into, I give I do both. So they have a coaching and consulting package in which we work on the expertise, and then we have one on one sessions where we dive just deep into their leadership skills.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, I love that, because I think a lot of times what happens, particularly in coaching relationships, is one of the best advantages you have from having a coach is the ability to see those blind spots, right? And that, by virtue of their definition, you can’t see them yourself, right? That is what a blind spot is. And so sometimes folks will the team is the problem, fix them, you know? And you’ll get someone in there who has both a consulting and coaching expertise, and they’ll very quickly pick up on, oh no, there’s more than a team kind of structural issue. There’s a there’s a personal thing we’ve got to deal with over here and and it’s why I’m a big fan of what I would call a bimodal coach, consultant, someone who can work in both capacities, because they’re able to see that they’re able to bridge that gap. And like you, I think many times you need both. If you’re trying to scale up an organization, you can’t do it by yourself, but you certainly can’t do it without you, and you need both.
Doris Jackson-Shazier
And actually people, and what I help them do in that coaching experience is help them to really hone in at the fact that what got you here may not get you there, so you’re going to another level. And so. Yeah, that coaching helps them to start to expand their thinking on what does this look like at the next level? Okay, it’s only been five of us, but I’m growing my business to 30 people. What systems and processes do I need in place to be successful at that level? And I’m able to do that not only through consulting, but they need that one on one experience, like you said, to really see the blind spots on where they’re going?
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. Yeah. That’s so true. So true. So Doris, there’s a question that I have for you. I ask it of all my guests, I’m gonna ask it of you. What would you say is the biggest secret that you wish wasn’t a secret at all? What’s that one thing you wish everybody watching or listening today knew?
Doris Jackson-Shazier
Man, and so this is such a thought provoking question, and I’m trying to narrow down in my mind, because I don’t know if it’s necessarily a secret, but I think that people shy away from transparency. I think that we’ve gotten so much better. I really do. I think as a society, think about wage transparency, and it’s just these different things are happening, but I think there’s still this compelling need to hide certain parts of us, and I just wish that everybody knew that we get so much further when we’re transparent, that we build others where we can share the times where we weren’t perfect, that people learn so much better from our mistakes. And so I am a strong advocate for people to not keep your failure, failures or your mistakes so secretive. We teach and we build others when we’re able to share the things that help build our character, or the moments that we you know weren’t doing so well. Yeah, it really helps others.
Scott Ritzheimer
That’s fantastic, Doris. There’s some folks listening to this, and they’re like, coach, yes, consultant, yes. I need Doris help. How can they find more out about you and the work that you and your team do? And where can they get a copy of your book?
Doris Jackson-Shazier
Oh, man, so one stop shop would be to go to dorisjacksonshazier.com, and on that web page, you find out more about my raising justice lessons learned through motherhood book. You hear a little bit about my upcoming book, pieces to peace, overcoming corporate and COVID, and it connects you directly to my business page, which is shaziercoachingconsult.com, and so yeah, check out my web page. My link to my LinkedIn is there, and my blog, high accountability, high morale and business in life.
Scott Ritzheimer
Wonderful, love it. We’ll get that in the show notes for everyone listening. Do check it out. Fantastic book, fantastic site, lots of great resources there. Doris, thanks for being on the show. There’s just a great privilege having you here and sharing today. I love this conversation. For those of you watching and listening, you know that your time and attention mean the world to us. I hope you got as much out of this conversation, as I know I did, and I cannot wait to see you next time. Take care.
Contact Doris Jackson-Shazier
Doris Jackson-Shazier is a seasoned author, speaker, ICF-accredited leadership coach, and management consultant with over twenty years of experience driving organizational growth and excellence. Renowned for her genuine and cooperative leadership style, Doris plays multiple roles—leader, mentor, facilitator, wife, and mother of four. She is deeply passionate about empowering relationships at home and work and specializes in teaching leaders how to create high accountability and high morale environments.
Want to learn more about Shazier Coaching & Consulting’s work at Shazier Coaching & Consulting? Check out her website at https://dorisjacksonshazier.com/ and get a copy of her book Raising Justice: Lessons Learned Through Motherhood at https://amzn.to/4f5lENc
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