In this conflict-crushing episode, Jerry Fu, Owner of Adapting Leaders, LLC, shares how he teaches his clients how to manage conflict the right way in order to improve themselves as leaders.
You will discover:
– How to leverage your 10 seconds of confidence
– The unique challenges Asian-Americans face within the US workforce
– The 5 steps simple steps anyone can use to become better at conflict resolution
Episode Transcript
Scott Ritzheimer
Hello Hello and welcome welcome once again to the secrets of the high demand coach and I’m here with yet another high demand coach, and that is the one and only Jerry Fu. Prior to starting his coaching business, Jerry served as a pharmacist and began facility facilitating leadership workshops in 2012. Jerry is a conflict resolution coach who helps Asian American leaders to advance in their career and life journey. Now, Jerry started coaching in 2017, to help Asian American professionals deal with the conflict that they encounter at work with their culture and within themselves. He’s coached leaders at companies like Capital One Boehringer Ingelheim, and Microsoft ever heard of them, right. And he’s an associate certified coach through the international coaching Federation and certified in talent optimization, EQI, 2.0, and EQI 360. The question that jumps off the page at me here, Jerry is What haven’t you done? I mean, I’ve pretty much done everything. So first off, I’m so excited to have you here on the show. I can’t wait to dive into some of the stuff you’re doing around conflict resolution, I think it’s really powerful, really special. Before we do that, though, I want to hit rewind for just a moment and talk about so you were a pharmacist, is that right? Tell us a little bit about that? What are some of the things that you learned there and how that ultimately led you to making the leap into doing coaching?
Jerry Fu
Yeah, pharmacy was the healthcare default setting that my family wanted me to do, but not quite, because my family has a line of doctors. And so when I was not in line to become a physician, because they didn’t quite have the drive to get the grades to push my way in. I said, Well, I still want to do healthcare. So what’s the next best thing and pharmacy was on the up and up. And so thanks to pharmacy for providing some level of prestige and salary compare to when healthcare practitioners are supposed to make. And at the same time, after about five years working for a chain pharmacy to obtain the stability my immigrant father never had, I decided I needed something different. And so tried to leverage my network and got a teaching job through a pharmacy consulting company that I left my home for. Because at the time I was living with my family. And I thought that would be the last company ever, ever need to work for. And 11 months later, I got fired. And so that was the wake up call that made me realize, hey, you know what, something isn’t working. I didn’t want to admit the difficult and essential truth that I needed to really grow up at that point, that wouldn’t be enough to just work for this company and assume that they would never be so mad at me that they would cut my position. So the next reality check happened six weeks later, when I stumbled into a house of cards promised a job or for my paycheck spouse billing for crooked doctors. So not only am I jeopardizing my license, my owner isn’t even paying me for it. So how do you confront the guy who’s clearly ripping you off? Like they don’t tell you these things, right? And you didn’t think you’d ever have to read them, like find a tool in your toolbox in order to do these. And so after nine months of chasing down paychecks, and praying that I didn’t get in trouble with the state board, I never came to rescue me again and got down with another company that was more legitimate, but couldn’t pay me more than eight hours a week. And so I said, Well, you know, beggars can’t be choosers, what can I do next? And so they said, Well, you know, you can get more hours in Austin, which is not a bad city to land in, but still wasn’t known. And so that summer was key because some friends of mine who run a pharmacy leadership nonprofit, said, Hey, we know you’ve been facilitating workshops on the paternity side. But we’d love for you to step into our leadership meeting because one of our facilitators backed out. And so I said, Yeah, absolutely. And so teaching leadership, did something, like changed my thinking about whether or not I could actually become a good leader. Because before I just said, Oh, it’s not possible. Like I’m not good at it. The few times I’ve tried to fill out must never be good at it. But now I said, Well, what if I could be put in enough work? What could happen? And so when a manager position opened up in Houston, where I had been based out of when consulting job, I said, Okay, gotta gotta take on this challenge, can’t stay safe, want to sleep in my own bed again. And so I said, Wow, this is this will be it. It wasn’t. And so about a year later, while I was on probation for not writing up or firing, technicians who were not pulling their weight, the company had their funding pulled and the only reason he got an interview with my next company was that I had leadership experience on my resume. So what I tell people is that leadership saved my career. And so while I have more doors open for me now that I have more credibility on my on my career path, I got tired of the grind because every job business model just wasn’t sustainable compared to big chains or things like that. And I knew I didn’t want to work for them. So I said, Well, you know what’s left? They said, I love people development because they consistently been facilitating workshops since I started 11 years ago. So what if I made a career out of that? Still very scared of failure and rejection. And so nothing serious happened until 2021, to decide to get some coach training through ICF, and the pandemic hit, and then we said, well, now what, and grateful for the pharmacy job I have and still have, actually, that helps pay my bills. But I said how much longer I’m gonna put the dream off. And so to October of 2020, follow the LLC got it going, try struggle, fail, lots of anxiety, but revenue is on his way up and grateful that I had the chance to step into this opportunity.
Scott Ritzheimer
That’s fantastic. What a story. What a story. There’s a lot to unpack there. I’d like to start though with this. What would you say it today is some of the most important work you’re doing with your coaching clients?
Jerry Fu
Yeah, yeah, I’d say I’ll give you an example. So one leader said, Hey, I inherited my team. It’s been three weeks, and I have someone who’s been on this team for about 10 years. So he’s very seasoned. He’s very experienced. But he’s also mad that he hasn’t gotten a promotion. But the last two supervisors who tried to give feedback on what he was lacking in order to actually be qualified to consider a management position, he rebuffed. And so he asked me, How do I get this guy to take my, my feedback seriously? Like, how do I make sure I don’t have the same fate? If he does, right? And so by now, I have a framework to help people who are conflict averse like me, who still don’t like fighting people with firing people, I hope I never get to a point where I take satisfaction in doing these things. But, you know, we said, Okay, well, you know, how do you want this conversation to go? Right? What’s possible? What success to you? Is it just being able to say what you need to say? And even if he disagrees? Is it finding some level of compromise? Is that him opening up a little more to consider what he’d be willing to change? Or is it just hey, I just want to put it out there. If he says no, then hey, well, one less thing to worry about. So we had to imagine what a successful conversation would sound like. Right? And then second step would be to say, okay, when are you going to find 10 seconds of courage to actually initiate this conversation? Right. 10 seconds of courage people love because you don’t have to be a superhero. Just be one for 10 seconds, pick up the phone, send that email, send that text, roll that boulder lock the gate behind you. Okay? No, hey, we’re dumping you in the pool, you better start swimming. Right? And so, yeah, just get get in the game, right? And then step three, hey, script, your critical phrases, right? Think about what you’re going to say what kind of case you want to make on paper, don’t let it rattle around in your head and anticipate the pushback, you’re probably going to get, right. And so when you anticipate pushback, how would you counter the counter. And so now we have kind of an idea of, hey, let’s inventory this, let’s make sure we don’t get tangled in the weeds of every possible scenario. But let’s look at the one or two most likely, and then see what happens. So then step four is to rehearse these moves, right? You didn’t just do this homework, just to turn it in and get an A you need to practice your posture, your tone, your body language, and your roleplay with the friend to iron out your phrasing. So you don’t trip over your own words, in the heat of the moment, right. And then step five, a follow through, right? No plan survives attack by the enemy, or by reality, but then you improvise, can you think on your feet in such a way that will still get you across the finish line? And even if you don’t, now you have feedback, you can study to say, hey, if I had to do this over how would I tweak my approach? And then how can I keep dialing and adjusting until I actually get where I need to go? So those are the things that I do for my clients?
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, I love that. I love the five steps too. So how does you know someone who is you know, by your own kind of admission here, conflict averse? How do you end up landing in this world of conflict management?
Jerry Fu
Yeah. Sometimes you don’t choose your specialty. Sometimes that chooses you right? Sometimes here. Sometimes the moment of greatest pain and struggle is the exact moment of turning around and helping people with the same struggle. You realize, hey, you know, I didn’t want this. I remember. There’s a guy I know who started the prison ministry, who was a former felon, and he thought he’d never want to go back to jail again. But guess what, where’s his greatest impact? right back where he had struggled for so long. And so yeah, don’t get me wrong, guys. It’s not like oh, it’s broken now. Right? It’s like, Hey, guys. I’ve been through the mud. I’ve been through the struggle, and if you’re willing to put in the work, maybe you can get there too. So yeah, that’s that’s that’s why I realized that was the one rate limiting step to help him back every step of the way. Whether it’s like hey, how to like, have a difficult boss when or a difficult conversation when my boss and I don’t see eye to eye. I don’t like confront the guy who’s causing me problems. How do I confront people who are not pulling their weight out? Everything comes down to being able to pay, get started, get in there, deal with that struggle deal with that anxiety, and realize it’s not fatal.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. Yeah, it’s that’s a fascinating statement because somewhere inside of our brain, right, and different people will debate a little bit, but somewhere inside of our brain, the reptilian brain, we’ll call it that for now, for lack of a better term, but it’s literally screaming, you’re gonna die, right? Like, if you have that conversation, you are going to die. And so it’s hard for us to, to even relate to that content. Because I mean, we know that we know that, okay, if I walk, it’s not gonna be the end of me, right? I’m not physically going to die. But I feel so strongly about this. And I love your point, I think it was step two, but your 10 seconds of courage, right? So just I want to pause on that thought for a little bit and just kind of unpack it a little bit, why 10 seconds of courage?
Jerry Fu
It’s right outside your comfort zone, right? Just to say, Hey, can you shrink that change? Because some people, right, they think, Oh, I have to put on the whole superhero costume before I can go in into the building. And we you know, I don’t want to put on the cape right now. I don’t want to put on the beach right now. And then, meanwhile, there’s a raging fire and you say, Well, you know, the fire will go out eventually. And like, Well, if that’s true, but now everything is birthed out. Like there’s nothing to say. And so when you say 10 seconds, you say, oh, like I don’t know how to find courage to say, Well, can you drum up 10 seconds? Like, surely can find 10 seconds? So just stretch yourself in that moment? Oh, one 1000 two 1000. All right, send the email boop done. Okay. Oh, right. And then, and then deal with the deal with the immediate remorse afterward to like, I can’t take it back. Up, you know, mess up now. Right? It’s like, a step up.
Scott Ritzheimer
It’s such a good point. Because, you know, anything. I mean, conflict avoidance is is a big one for a lot of folks. But anything, there’s that, you know, that procrastination, right? I think that principle can be applied just across the board. There’s, there’s something that everyone doesn’t want to do, right? Or everyone doesn’t want to do something is probably a better way of putting that. And I think that idea of and I loved how you position is like, hey, imagine this going? Well, like what do you actually want out of it. And then from that place, so we have a vision of something we’re walking to, alright, find that 10 seconds of courage to just start the ball rolling. There’s a lot of wisdom in that. Love it. Now, next question here, I want to actually rewind to the story you told on on when you first came in? Yeah. And you were talking about the stability my immigrant father never had, and there was just some weight on that. So I’d love to hear a little bit of how that has continued to shape some of the decisions and how you’ve used that to help the leaders that you serve.
Jerry Fu
Yeah, yeah. My parents definition of success is a steady paycheck and benefits. And I can appreciate those really, when you need, you want to have a profitable, credible job skill, whether it’s medicine, or engineering, or otherwise, and to be able to have someone say, Yes, I value your skill, right? The The problem is that the everything comes externally, right. So I don’t have it in me, and therefore I’m relying on this external source to give me validation or some sense of stability, right? And then you realize, that doesn’t always happen. And even if I didn’t get fired, if I’ve seen I’ve worked for companies that it didn’t matter, that it wasn’t my fault, like the company’s still folded. And so you realize, you know, I remember one coach saying, our peace of mind is knowing that you can make money when you need to make it right, like the ability to produce wealth, and you realize, hey, you know, what, I’m gonna have to trust in my own creative resourcefulness to, you know, make money somehow, whether it is a I go tutoring, or I, you know, like, do a presentation, or I saw some other problems. And so you realize stability is much more fleeting than you realize. But then when you internalize it and say, hey, you know what, I can do something about this, like, where’s my locus of control? And so don’t get me wrong, like, I have more like my dad than I wanted. I want certain things. And then you realize, okay, well, that’s good. I can appreciate the intent behind what he wanted for me and what he wanted for himself. And at the same time, why do how do I put my own spin on it? So that yeah, because otherwise, no one would work for themselves, right? And no one would want to bet on themselves and say, You know what, no, I’m going to buy my own benefits. They’re expensive, but hey, I’m not going to be slaved to somebody else and dependent on someone else’s paycheck.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, yeah, that’s powerful. One of the things that I noticed even in your bio that you sent over in the the website and everything is you do a lot of work with other Asian Americans. And what would you say are some of the unique challenges that Asians and Asian Americans face in the US workforce today.
Jerry Fu
Yeah, yeah, there’s there’s a number, right. One is the culture that I grew up in doesn’t necessarily match the culture of the company I’m working for. That’s the first thing. The second is this uphill battle where you have to work twice as hard sometimes for the same amount of credit, assuming you get it, right. There is this continual, you know, am I enough and sometimes that drive can lead to some good things, but you realize that you will never be content, if you let that happen. So there’s, so if I had to list the challenges, one is adjustment, you know, how do I adapt without compromising who I am? The second would be engagement, right? To say, okay, you know, what are the rules? Which ones should I follow? Which ones can stretch or break? And, you know, am I willing to break and I’m not willing to accept the consequences if I do. And then three, you know, what is the target? Right? Am I looking for just another step up the ladder? Or am I really looking to live for something bigger, like quality of life and meaningful relationships, things? And so I’d say those are three of the biggest ones that any Asian American theater would have to encounter.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. Yeah. And along those same lines, how do Asian Americans you find and we’re painting really broad strokes, but but just in general, right, even if we go with the stereotype of it, which again, has a negative connotation, but you get where I’m coming from? Yeah. How, what’s the what’s kind of a standard approach for Asian Americans? And how does that differ from the standard approach to conflict for the general US workforce?
Jerry Fu
Yeah, yeah. Asians tend to be very deferential, right, which is not a problem when it comes to respecting a title. But it gets off the rails, right? When you think about, like the Korean airlines example, where people were afraid to speak up to the captain when like, the plane was clearly in trouble. And then when you realize that your social protocol is greater than, like, patient sitting like Dora, you know, passenger safety, then it’s like, okay, that goes off the rails. So, yeah, I’d say, like, when you speak, it’s like a, it’s okay. Like, speak up to know, hey, your boss, I need to bring something up with you. And here’s why. Right. And when you emphasize the benefit of why you’re bringing things up, it kind of takes away the sting a little bit of recognizing, hey, you know, what, hey, it’s gonna be hard. And this isn’t a comfortable topic. And I know that if we work through it, that our relationship will be stronger. So I’d say the turning point is recognizing, hey, like the conflict doesn’t mean something’s wrong. Conflict means something is right. Because the fact that you’re able to bring this up without fear of retribution or retaliation means that the relationship is strong.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s such a powerful, great, what can we do as leaders here in the US to get the most out of, again, Asian Americans who are who have a similar story to yours?
Jerry Fu
Yeah, I’m reminded of a book called humble inquiry by Edgar Schein. And I think, the posture you take to establish a sense of belonging, when you say, hey, you know, I know some things I don’t know everything. And like to learn more about you, what, you know, going beyond what I assume about you going beyond what I’ve, I know about your culture, maybe you know, that information may be wrong, or I may be misinformed that how do I bring out the best? Like, how can I serve and support you? And when you when both sides take that, you know, humility stance, I think there’s a lot there that makes me say, hey, you know what, I want to put my faith in this person, right? They’re letting me open up, they’re letting me be myself. And when you have this sense of belonging, and you can do away with the pretenses, I think it helps get people in the right frame of mind, even before you appreciate any of the work that they do for you.
Scott Ritzheimer
Wow wow, yeah, such a good point. It’s it’s often, you know, humility and conflict, right? It’s just those that those two things feel like they’re just they can be tricky to navigate. But I think you’re right, setting that as, hey, this is the foundation both from as leaders and as, as employees and team members. If we can approach each of those situations now with a humility that that causes us to back down right and avoid conflict, but a humility that says, hey, I want to understand this better. Right. Humility that leads to curiosity, I found is one of the key pieces to do a purchasing conflict. I think you really hit that well. Alright, here’s a question. I like to ask all my guests. And it’s this what is the biggest secret that you just wish wasn’t a secret at all? What’s that one thing that you wish everyone listening or watching today knew?
Jerry Fu
Yeah. It kind of ties back to recognizing that failure is not fatal. With conflict. It comes back down to recognizing, hey, guess what? Conflict Resolution is a skill anybody can learn. Like it’s not just reserved. For like the experts, or like certain people have it or they don’t, maybe some people are, are more willing to engage. But that doesn’t change the fact that they still have to work and refine how they engage conflict. And so when you say, hey, put in the work, and you know, even if you say, Oh, I’ll never be a conflict resolution expert, it’s okay. As long as you’re better than when you started. We’ll all celebrate that.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. This idea of it being a skill, cuz a couple of times throughout the conversation, you’ve had these moments where like, I couldn’t do that. But you stepped out, you had your own 10 seconds of courage and went in and did it. And so that person who’s sitting there, and they just heard it, right, conflict resolution is a skill that anyone can learn, but they’re still like, I don’t know, what would you say to them in this moment?
Jerry Fu
Yeah, I kind of feel the same mental kind of, yeah, I don’t want to call it a trick. But it’s something like as mental switch right to say, what if? If you couldn’t do it? Like, how would you carry yourself? Right? If you were a good leader? You know, could you put on your imagination hat for just a second the saying, We just switched that off? And, you know, if you were an expert in the subject, what would you how would you, you know, say or do things, and all of a sudden, right, when they realize the pressure is off, because they’re not, the body doesn’t realize you’re, you’re like, hypothetically experimenting, and then all of a sudden, like, you take the rails off, and then all of a sudden, they start to kind of play with their own play with their own tools, and, and you come up with your own stuff. And it’s, it’s fun to watch.
Scott Ritzheimer
That’s fantastic. Oh, that’s fantastic. All right. So I’m going to have you take off your coach hat for a second, I’m gonna have you put on your, your CEO, your leader hat of your own and tell us what’s the next stage of growth, like look like for you as a leader? And what challenges do you think you’re gonna have to overcome to get there?
Jerry Fu
Yeah, I’ve, I’ve been dealing with this for the last two or three months, actually. And I’ve come to the sobering realization that, you know, I’m relying on a lot of coaching platforms for revenue. And I’m grateful for them grateful that they trust me to represent their platform as well. And I’ve realized that I can’t make a career pivot based on the compensation that they’re forgiving me. Thankful for it. And I know that overall as numbers, right. It’ll just only be a hobby at best if I just continue to say this is enough. And same thing with podcast appearances, right? It’s just an easy target. Now, like, I got over that fear of rejection and grateful again, for every host I’ve met. And but at the same time, I’ve realized, you know, what, I need to do more keynotes, I need to do more of my own products, because that way, I won’t have to settle for the scraps when it comes to selling and the revenue. So yeah, that’s, that’s my big, hairy, audacious goal this year is just, hey, you know what, I’m gonna have to start chasing after whales and not just settle for the minnows.
Scott Ritzheimer
That’s great. Wow, it’s, there’s, there’s that moment of like, go in and, and, yeah, again, you’ll find your 10 seconds. And what you’re doing is, is remarkable, it’s special, it’s needed. And so you know, I’m so excited, just thinking about the success that you be able to achieve as you go out there and make it happen. You know, we’ve seen it in your story time and time again. And I appreciate you sharing that with, with me and with our audience. So there’s some folks that are out there listening, and they’re just like, like, there’s so much about your story that they resonate with, right, and they want to be able to step into conflict, they’re dealing with something at work right now. And they’re dealing with it by not dealing with it or whatever it may be, right? They just want to become better leaders. They want to become better at this. The skill of conflict resolution, how can they find out more about your work and what you do?
Jerry Fu
Yeah, there’s a there’s a free guide, give away outlining these five steps, the case study www.adaptingleaders.com/guide. Or if you just go to adaptingleaders.com Check out the website. There’s a free blog where I unpack all sorts of neat material or book summaries or schedule a complimentary 30 minute call experience coaching for yourself and realize just what kind of transformation that leads to but at the very least, adaptingleaders.com
Scott Ritzheimer
That’s great, excellent, adaptingleaders.com/guide, Jerry. It’s just an honor having you on the show. So appreciate you being here. And for those of you who are listening, watching you know that your time and attention mean the world to me. I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I know I did, and I cannot wait to see you next time. Take care.
Contact Guest Name
Prior to starting his coaching business, Jerry served as a pharmacist and began facilitating leadership workshops in 2012. Jerry is a conflict resolution coach who helps Asian-American leaders advance in their career and life journeys. Jerry started coaching in 2017 to help other Asian-American professionals deal with the conflict they encounter at work, with their culture, and within themselves. He has coached leaders at companies like Capital One, Boehringer-Ingelheim, and Microsoft. He is an Associate Certified Coach through the International Coaching Federation and certified in Talent Optimization, EQi 2.0, and EQi 360.
Want to learn more about Jerry Fu’s work at Adapting Leaders, LLC? Check out his website at https://www.adaptingleaders.com and get his free guide “A Simple Framework for Hard Conversations”
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