In this high-impact episode, Ron Brewster, Executive Director of Mission Builders International, shares how he and his team help nonprofits around the world discover the right size and right strategies for success so they can see their mission fulfilled.
You will discover:
– How to manage mission creep
– Why you should start saying no
– The role of systems
Episode Transcript
Scott Ritzheimer
Hello, and welcome, welcome once again to the secrets of the high demand coach podcast. And I’m here with a very unique high demand coach. And that is the one and only and I mean the one and only Ron Brewster, who has spent the majority of his very storied career with an unbelievable organization called Youth With A Mission. They’re a global nonprofit with 10s of 1000s of staff on basically every populated continent around the globe. And Ron has been there since 1987. And aside from three years on staff at a Foursquare church in Roseburg, Oregon, His entire ministry career has largely been dedicated to YWAM. Now, in 2002, he became the director of YWAM, Montana. And in June 2011, he received his master’s degree in leadership. Now, Ron has traveled to 50 countries, including serving for five years as the managing director of YWAM, San Diego Baja. Now he’s currently the co director of mission builders International, or MBI, where he provides leadership support practical resources, and volunteer placement to YWAM locations across the globe. And So Ron, I’m so excited about this, because you’re also part of our scale architects program, you do a lot of the work that you’re doing, providing leadership. So using the predictable success model that so many of our folks in the audience have heard about. And we’ve had, you know, traveling to 50 countries is not an easy thing. You’re a busy man, you’re hard to nail down. So we’ve been working on this for months now. And so I’m so excited to have you here. I just can’t wait to unpack what you’re doing, particularly in the nonprofit space. Before we get to all of that, though, I’d like to just get a little color from you on on your story. So with regard to what were you doing before you jumped in with Mission builders, you know, where you were inside of YWAM. Tell us a little bit about that season, and how that ultimately led you to making the leap into the directorship at MBI.
Ron Brewster
Sure. Thanks, Scott to be part of the program today. Glad we could connect. Yeah, so I’ve been in this organization, and like you said, about 20,000 staff. So I was 22 years and Montana, at our one of our bigger organizations in Wyoming. And then I moved down to San Diego, Baja 2013, that five years down there, primarily down there, we were building homes for deserving families, we’d have organizations, businesses come down, and we were able to build 300 homes a year just impact impacts, so many families live. Even people like Patrick Lencioni brought down his table group, we had all these different CEOs, it was a great time. One of the things I noticed, though, was part of our organization, different locations was reaching out to said, Hey, can you Coach can you help. And it was the managing director trying to manage a very large organization of 220 staff members, three different locations in Mexico and San Diego. And I just wasn’t able to do both. And so I had to make a choice, do I stay focused on one of our YWAM locations? Or do I help? All locations are many of them. So myself and a small group of people decided to head back up to Montana. And we took over what was called NBI mission builders. And we’ve kind of built that out now. And we’re serving why we have globally with coaching services, we have architect on staff just a bunch of different professional level services.
Scott Ritzheimer
That’s fantastic. And so within the environment of why I’m kind of serving as an internal coaching consultant, what would you say some of the most important work you’re doing for these different bases in the leaders who lead them? Yeah, I
Ron Brewster
Think for our organization, it may be similar to other organizations. But for us, we we work with what we call the T one team. So in the predictable success model, that’s kind of your highest level of leadership team, C suite probably for businesses and helping them to be cohesive as a team. And then also bringing some clarity to that decision. So that when they’re making decisions, and they’re leading this organization, there’s a cohesive leadership team along with some clarity. And with that, with our predictable success model, it’s been so good, the language is so great for our organization, is we come alongside and the leaders and say, Okay, what size are you supposed to be? What word? Where are you growing, and helping them to realize there’s basically two choices within the model that they can do. And this language that we’re bringing in the model is pretty revolutionary. And it’s really helpful to the leaders, and they often don’t feel like failure. Sometimes they’re feeling like, I’m just failing, and then we go through the model and they’re like, Okay, this is somewhat normal.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s such a great point, because there’s this idea and and nonprofits are not impervious to it, but it’s this up and Right, right. If we’re not getting bigger, if we’re not scaling up if we’re not hundreds of staff, we’re not succeeding. And I think that’s especially hard in the wire room base base environment because other bases are and so just explain a little bit about why is it that the You would not want to be a larger organization?
Ron Brewster
Yeah. Well, that’s a great question. Because in our organization, we’re all about vision, entrepreneurship, we have a lot of young people. Growth and multiplication is huge, which is awesome. I mean, it’s really great because we can dream we can visions, a very decentralized organization, as well. But there is this thing where if we don’t have a big piece of property, and we don’t have 100 staff, and we don’t have 15, different things we’re doing, are we really productive? Are we really successful because we do have some of our locations that are real, like we have ship, we’ve got all these different locations, coming alongside our YWAM leaders, were probably 80% of the locations probably aren’t going to get over 30 full time staff. And helping them understand that they can stay in that stage that we call fun and predictable success, where you are growing, because growth is important. But you’re growing more by addition versus multiplication or scaling on it like a J curve.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. And and so what about the that guy or girl who says that, like I want it all right, like I want I want to be small and nimble. And I also want to scale this thing to be hundreds of people like, where do you come across that? And how do you help folks navigate that desgin?
Ron Brewster
You know, I think sometimes our leaders because they are visionary and entrepreneurial. And so and they’re not much of a systems process person, right. And so they love being able to move fast, quick, make decisions, and sometimes just by who they are, and their vision, they grow this thing. But now all of a sudden, like in the model, it’s become more complex. And now all of a sudden, there’s complexity. And they’re still trying to act like they were 30 and smaller in that fun stage. But they’re actually what we call whitewater now. And complexity has taken over and they get stuck. And so we have to come alongside and really kind of help them think through all right. Do you want to go through this Whitewater, to get to what’s called predictable success or repeatable success? Or do you want to go back to fun, and I think helping leaders understand that there’s a choice. And understanding, really counting the cost of what it means to go all the way through and get to that predictable success part is going to be quite difficult, at least in our organization. Well worth it if that’s what you want to do. But we just kind of help them sort through that there’s actually two different directions they can go.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, and I love the point that you’re making here. And I don’t want it to be overlooked. But either one is, is success, right? Both are equally valid. Neither one is better or worse than the other. And one of the things that I’ve found kind of drives the or forces the decision, particularly in nonprofits is mission creep. Right. I was working with a nonprofit once, and they had as many ministries as they did staff. And so one of the things that kind of creates that complexity that we’re fighting, and and often comes as a result of that kind of visionary entrepreneurial ideas, oh, we can do this ministry in this ministry, there’s these people that we can serve in these people. So where does that? Where does that mission creep come from? And how do we keep it in check if we, especially if we want to stay small and nimble?
Ron Brewster
Yeah, you know, from our organization, we try to make sure there’s some clarity, when we’re first working with the teams really trying to get clear on their vision on their mission. And we use some a Patrick Lencioni material, and they have six critical questions. And inside of that is, you know, what, what’s kind of drives you? Why do you exist, but inside of that, also is the What’s your strategic anchor, or the how that you get this done. And so as we’re working with the team, there’s we will right up on the board, and there will be so many things, because it’s such a visionary organization. So I mean, there’s 100 different things. And then they don’t feel successful when all of them aren’t happening. I think just trying to get clarity on Okay, we have an overall organization, vision. But each location actually is unique in that, and there’s a lot of room in our organization, because there’s really no formal headquarters. And so it’s really easy to kind of drift if you’re not careful in our organization, because you’re kind of independent. And so the corporate board, as well as having leaders like us come in and try to help stay focused, I think is a big help.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. And you’ve got kind of the privilege, if you will, I don’t know that it necessarily feels like this, but you get the perspective is probably a better word of being able to see what happens 100 decisions into that flow, right? So it because mission creep is not one big decision to just be confusing. That’s No, no leaders out there trying to confuse their people. But that is the cost of it. Right? So for that person who’s really struggling because it’s like, man, we could do that we could help this group. What how do you know when to say no to that next addition or that new ministry or that thing that could potentially be a drift for the organization.
Ron Brewster
Yeah. And again, I think that’s going to be a tough one in us, because we’re basically a yes organization and dependent on the leader. Everything is, is a yes. And so I think trying to walk through some decision making with them, particularly if they move into predictable success where decision makings a little slower, but the implementation can be a little faster. And so I think just trying to slow leaders down and just down cabling, we’ve really got to ask the questions, does this really fit with where we’re going? There’s a lot of good options out there. And so sometimes, our staff will have great ideas. They’re highly visionary. The question is, should that be here? Or maybe another part of why wham would be good, or maybe outside of YWAM? And just being a little careful, just to keep saying, yes, yes, yes. Because the resources get spread, the people get spread. It’s already a challenge running this organization, let alone, like you said, having more sometimes ministries or programs that we do staff.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. And what are some some of the symptoms that the bases are experiencing before you come in that, that maybe for someone listening might be like, Hey, keep an eye out for these indications that you might be overreaching from a vision perspective, or that you that mission creep might be at a critical, critical point?
Ron Brewster
Oh, yeah, there’s a, there’s a few different things. I think sometimes it pushes them into a complexity, there’s too much complexity. And so there really should be in the fun stage. But they’ve added 15 different things that are barely working. And so but they’re really excited that it’s hard. And I think maybe faith based organizations maybe to say, No, we’ve got to kill this, we got to stop it, you know, also a lot of people involved. And so you might have these ministries, programs running and that really need to be shut down. But it’s really hard to do that. But it’s created so much complexity, that it’s actually pushed them into that whitewater stage before they were actually ready, with all good intentions. And so part of it is just trying to own things down, again, towards their mission towards their vision, and bring clarity. And that’s usually a hard decision and our discussions to have, but I find that it’s helpful for them moving forward.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah. And yeah, it’s not an easy thing to do. Right? Generally, folks who get into the nonprofit space, they are very visionary, but they’re also very nice, or you know, that these are not like, these are not ruthless, selfish people. Right. They’re pouring their life out for the people that they serve. And, and the things that they’re doing are very nice as well, right? We’re not talking about bad ministries we’re not talking about, they’re in like, you know, kicking dogs or something like we’re helping people we’re helping, you know, creating homes for very deserving families, like he talked about in the intro there. And so that’s, it’s just very hard to do. And I wonder if you could help us to see beyond that. So those who, who are able to make those hard decisions who are able to either like spin off or even wind down some of the ministries that are causing complexity, what’s it look like on the other side that makes all of that worth it?
Ron Brewster
Yeah, you brought up some good points there, because Patrick Lencioni, who did some coaching with some of our leadership teams, he said, you know, one of the things with Christian organizations are faith based, and a lot of times they have pillow fights, instead of actually being able to disagree and, you know, really pound the table, we’re all trying to be so nice. And so that can be a challenge when everybody’s being nice. But, you know, I think we can be respectful, but also have those hard conversations. And one of the things I’ve seen in our organization, is, we need to have what we call operator visionary. And so if we have the primary visionary of the organization, as they grow, they need to have that next leader who has an operational ability, they like to get things done, maybe with some vision, and then they can run something. And you can do that for a while. And right now, with Mission builders, we’ve actually chosen to stay in fun. So we have eight different visionary operators who are also building teams. And we’re able to do that, with a move up above into that that is really trying to get that leadership team that we use the phrase, the phrase is enterprise commitment. So that that high level leadership team is thinking about the whole enterprise. And then we’re making what’s called high quality team based decision making, and it just slows things down a little bit. So for some of our leaders, they hate slow. And for the ones that just are like, I don’t want to put in systems and processes and slow everything down. Fun is the best place for them to hang out as an organization.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, yeah, so true. So as a question, I’d like to ask all of my guests and I’m just fascinated to hear your thoughts on this. But what would you say is the biggest secret you wish wasn’t a secret at all, particularly in this area? We talked about nonprofit leadership and growing an organization, what would you say is the biggest secret you wish wasn’t a secret at all?
Ron Brewster
Yeah, so I think, again, I’ll speak primarily to our organization but I think could apply elsewhere is as leaders, there is a there is a twist that you can have. And you can either stay in that organization that’s fun, little bit smaller, but you’re growing, or you can scale. And then it’s actually a choice and that you can be content without being complacent. And Steve Jobs had this great book that I like he was talking to Stanford graduates. And he said, Stay hungry, stay foolish. And I think that is so so important. And so I, for me, it’s, that’s kind of resonated with me, I want to stay hungry, I want to stay foolish, you have to take risks, but also understand which kind of organization Am I trying to do. And right now, with Mission builders, we really want to stay in fun, because that’s going to help us serve the people that we’re serving the last 20 some years, I was in two different YWAM locations that were predictable success, and we scaled up, we had lots of staff, hundreds of staff, um, all sorts of different things. It was great. It’s just a different type of organization.
Scott Ritzheimer
Yeah, yeah, fun and predictable success. For those of you who haven’t done it, you can head over to scale architects.com. And there’s a lifecycle quiz there. If you don’t know what these stages are, or want to know, it’s your stages, check that out. And it might make a little bit more sense for what we’re talking about here. But I love that you can be content without being complacent, which I think is I mean, that’s just a massive revelation for most visionary leaders. And, and I’ve also found that comes in seasons, right? So it may not be Hey, this is forever, but it may be that this is for right now. So I love that. Yeah, that was just great. Great wisdom. One more question for you here. And that is, I’m actually going to be take off your kind of advisor hat for a moment and put on your own CEO hat even mentioned this in your your last answer here. So you’ve decided to stay in fine, you’ve decided to stay small and nimble. So what does the growth look like in that stage for you particularly? And what challenges will you have to overcome to get there?
Ron Brewster
Yeah, so when I joined up with Mission builders, 2019, there was three and a half staff, we’ve now got about 20, full time staff and some remote staff. And now the staff are saying I don’t think you guys will stay in, in fun. And so for us, it’s a matter of saying what what does that look like, and what kind of discipline does that require for us, because we are trying to still grow. But we are trying not to make this thing too complex. Because if we do, myself and my co director Don, we will be running it, which is totally fine. But we want to be doing things we want to be out coaching, we want to be out traveling, I happen to Cambodia, January I was in Costa Rica with YWAM, do all these zooms. But if we grow this thing into a complex organization, I’ll have to back off, we’ll have to create management teams. And so it’s really a matter of taking that visionary operator, like I’ve mentioned before, and having an architect who’s a visionary operator, he’s grown his team about four or five, some of our other services, and then they grow their team four or five people. And we can do that for a while I’m sure that at some point, we’ll have to make some more decisions. But right now we’re able to keep moving forward and just try to be as disciplined as we can. Because I’m a visionary by nature. I like having things like growing and so just try not to scale and try not to make it too big is actually kind of a challenge, because we think it’s what’s best for the organization. So that’s where we’re at.
Scott Ritzheimer
Well, the discipline of not scaling and the reward of doing it so challenging, thought provoking, and just sounds on wisdom Ron, it was such an honor having you on the show today. And yeah, I just want to appreciate you the work that you do the work that while I’m does and thank you for being here for everyone listening you know your time and attention mean the world to us. I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I know I did, and I cannot wait to see you next time. Take care.
Contact Ron Brewster
Ron Brewster came into Youth with a Mission or YWAM in 1987. Aside from 3 years on staff at a Foursquare church in Roseburg, Oregon, his ministry career has been largely dedicated to YWAM. In 2002 he became the Director at YWAM Montana. In June 2011, Ron received a Master’s in Leadership. Ron has traveled to 50 countries. He served for five years as the Managing Director of YWAM San Diego Baja. Currently, he is the co-director of Mission Builders International or MBI. MBI provides leadership support, practical resources, and volunteer placement to YWAM locations worldwide.
Want to learn more about Ron Brewster’s work at Mission Builders International? Check out his website at https://www.missionbuilders.org/
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